Author Topic: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?  (Read 8228 times)

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Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2011, 12:32:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?

Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

You misunderstand me, they are not inconsequential or considered of little value at all, but it doesn't surprise me that there are often discrepancies and inaccuracies. On that basis the thing to do would be to seek other sources of information to figure out which discrepancy is correct, for example other witnesses statements, or as you say cross-examination.


This is what happened with regard to Jeremy's statements regarding the times of the calls on the morning of 7th August 1985.

When the stress testing path was taken in relation to JM's flatmates being asked about times the telephone rang they all gave different times for the telephone ringing. However if I am not mistaken, none of those witnesses gave a time that was later than 3.15 a.m. - On such a basis further questions needed to be asked.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2011, 12:32:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.  This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:35:PM by ngb1066 »

Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2011, 12:39:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.   This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

NGB - On such a basis how accurate do you, in your opinion as a barrister, consider the details 'Message passed to CD by son of Mr Bamber, after the phone went dead' which are included in the 3.26 telephone call log?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:49:PM by curiousessex »

Hartley

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2011, 12:45:PM »
But where say four police officers give statements and a single statement is in disagreement with the other three on a particular point, it would be logical to accept that the three matching statements are correct.


Offline ngb1066

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2011, 12:56:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.  This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

NGB - On such a basis how accurate do you, in your opinion as a barrister, consider the details 'Message passed by son of Mr Bamber' which are included in the 3.26 telephone call log?

curiousessex  - I would take these words at face value.  However, it is important to view these logs together and in their entirety in order to form a considered opinion on their meaning.  I can follow the argument that the logs suggest that there were two separate calls, one from Jeremy and one from Nevill.  However I do accept that the alternative explanation of a single call from Jeremy can also be supported.  There are some problems with either view and they have been fully canvassed in earlier posts.  Despite my overall opinion that JB is not guilty I am not firm in my view on the correct interpretation of these logs.  The key point is however that the logs were not made available in full to the jury at trial and we do not know what view the jury would have reached on them.

 

Offline ngb1066

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2011, 01:02:PM »
But where say four police officers give statements and a single statement is in disagreement with the other three on a particular point, it would be logical to accept that the three matching statements are correct.

Hartley  - as a starting point, yes.  However it is then necessary to look more closely to see if there are factors which might support the one officer against the three.  The one officer my have been in a better position to see or hear what went on.  The three officers may have made up their notes together (there is nothing in itself wrong with that in most circumstances) in which case in reality one officer takes the lead and the others write down the words in the same or similar form.  There are obviously endless permutations.


Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2011, 01:11:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.  This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

NGB - On such a basis how accurate do you, in your opinion as a barrister, consider the details 'Message passed by son of Mr Bamber' which are included in the 3.26 telephone call log?

curiousessex  - I would take these words at face value.  However, it is important to view these logs together and in their entirety in order to form a considered opinion on their meaning.  I can follow the argument that the logs suggest that there were two separate calls, one from Jeremy and one from Nevill.  However I do accept that the alternative explanation of a single call from Jeremy can also be supported.  There are some problems with either view and they have been fully canvassed in earlier posts.  Despite my overall opinion that JB is not guilty I am not firm in my view on the correct interpretation of these logs.  The key point is however that the logs were not made available in full to the jury at trial and we do not know what view the jury would have reached on them.

 

The 3.26 log available on the forum includes details which state 'The Crown Court at 'Chelmsford' (hand written) for 'Bamber' (hand written) Exhibit No '29' (hand written) as officer of the Court'.

This is evidence that the log was in the Court. As to whether the defence chose to make a point of it is up to the defence. On this point can you confirm if it is normal practice for every exhibit to be 'made available in full to the jury at trial' or is this something that would be down to the defence or prosecution in terms of how they would wish to present their case?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:12:PM by curiousessex »

Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2011, 01:15:PM »
But where say four police officers give statements and a single statement is in disagreement with the other three on a particular point, it would be logical to accept that the three matching statements are correct.

Hartley  - as a starting point, yes.  However it is then necessary to look more closely to see if there are factors which might support the one officer against the three.  The one officer my have been in a better position to see or hear what went on.  The three officers may have made up their notes together (there is nothing in itself wrong with that in most circumstances) in which case in reality one officer takes the lead and the others write down the words in the same or similar form.  There are obviously endless permutations.

I thought it was the case until recently that police officers were allowed to confer when making their notes.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2011, 01:21:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.  This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

NGB - On such a basis how accurate do you, in your opinion as a barrister, consider the details 'Message passed by son of Mr Bamber' which are included in the 3.26 telephone call log?

curiousessex  - I would take these words at face value.  However, it is important to view these logs together and in their entirety in order to form a considered opinion on their meaning.  I can follow the argument that the logs suggest that there were two separate calls, one from Jeremy and one from Nevill.  However I do accept that the alternative explanation of a single call from Jeremy can also be supported.  There are some problems with either view and they have been fully canvassed in earlier posts.  Despite my overall opinion that JB is not guilty I am not firm in my view on the correct interpretation of these logs.  The key point is however that the logs were not made available in full to the jury at trial and we do not know what view the jury would have reached on them.

 

The 3.26 log available on the forum includes details which state 'The Crown Court at 'Chelmsford' (hand written) for 'Bamber' (hand written) Exhibit No '29' (hand written) as officer of the Court.

This is evidence that the log was in the Court. As to whether the defence chose to make a point of it is up to the defence. On this point can you confirm if it is normal practice for every exhibit to be 'made available in full to the jury at trial' or is this something that would be down to the defence or prosecution in terms of how they would wish to present their case?

curiouessex  - it is difficult to work out exactly what was available at court in terms of the logs - I agree part was certainly available but I do not believe the full log was available, at otherwise Geoffrey Rivlin QC for the defence would have cross examined in detail on it and it would have been covered within the final speaches to the jury by both counsel and by the judge in his summing up.

It is up to counsel, both prosecution and defence, to decide which exhibits go before the jury.  The judge can of course make rulings during the trial upon the admissability of specific exhibits.  There is usually quite a lot of material which is available which neither the prosecution nor the defence considers to be relevant and that material is therefore not seen by the jury. 


Offline ngb1066

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2011, 01:23:PM »
But where say four police officers give statements and a single statement is in disagreement with the other three on a particular point, it would be logical to accept that the three matching statements are correct.

Hartley  - as a starting point, yes.  However it is then necessary to look more closely to see if there are factors which might support the one officer against the three.  The one officer my have been in a better position to see or hear what went on.  The three officers may have made up their notes together (there is nothing in itself wrong with that in most circumstances) in which case in reality one officer takes the lead and the others write down the words in the same or similar form.  There are obviously endless permutations.

I thought it was the case until recently that police officers were allowed to confer when making their notes.

They were and in fact still are save in certain circumstances.


clifford

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2011, 01:34:PM »
West admitted that he may not of made his notes up at the time of the call, and may have done it later .
It is interesting to note the letter from DS Ainsley to CS Harris after West had given his evidence.
Quote, " In addition he [West] gave the appearance of not knowing his evidence and had to be reminded by defence council of the contents of his statements, also lack of preparation for the occasion.
Could it be that West was there under duress.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:36:PM by cliff »

chochokeira

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2011, 01:40:PM »
West admitted that he may not of made his notes up at the time of the call, and may have done it later .
It is interesting to note the letter from DS Ainsley to CS Harris after West had given his evidence.
Quote, " In addition he [West] gave the appearance of not knowing his evidence and had to be reminded by defence council of the contents of his statements, also lack of preparation for the occasion.
Could it be that West was there under duress.


Good point, Cliff

chochokeira

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2011, 01:42:PM »
With reference to Jeremy's recall of the sequence of the calls he made in the early hours of 7th August I can maybe add something to the debate ... just a few years ago my friend had to recall the sequence of some telephone calls for the Coroner's Court ... she had no reason to mislead or to lie ... she stated as she recalled ... but when her recall was compared to her police statement (taken on the morning of the presumed death) the sequence was markedly different ... indeed there were several discrepancies ... my friend was mortified as she was being honest ... the Coroner told her not to worry ... that in a time of high emotion the memory plays tricks ... seems to me that could apply to Jeremy's recall too.

I think that discrepancies are to be expected, unless you have a photographic memory people just can't remember every single detail and they are often influenced by conversations with other people. Hence why in court witnesses are often given their written statements to refresh their memory.

It's simply the case that we don't have much to go on, so any discrepancies are being jumped on, whether it's in JB's statements or one of the police officers statements, almost certainly a number of these discrepancies are simply mistakes, an incorrect recollection of events.
I think you're right Hartley. We do tend to put everything under a microscope when we don't need to. And I think it applies to us all. The reason being as you say, we haven't much to go on and so we jump on every detail. My friend said to me once when I was looking for a certain explanation in the Bible I think it was. He said, "Perhaps you're looking for something that isn't there?"

If written statements are to be considered as of little value why are the police statements and logs dissected to identify any discrepancies which are regarded as evidence of conspiracies and set up?Cross examination is a fundamental and integral part of our legal system. Cross examination is effectively the stress testing of all witness statements to the court.

If I recall correctly the CCRC, in the provisional decision not to refer the case to the Court of Appeal,  have already given an indication of their opinion regarding statements and their reliability.

curiousessex  -  The police are trained to make up their notes accurately as soon as possible after the event concerned.  They are also not personally emotionally involved in the events they are recording.  There are experienced in making notes.  They are therefore expected to be far more accurate in what they record than can be expected of those civilians involved in an incident and asked to make a witness statement later.  Discrepancies in police notebooks and witness statements therefore can be and are legitimately subject to more critical scrutiny and analysis than in the case of other witnesses.

Police logs are a contemporaneous record of events.  They are a very good pointer to the truth, particularly where they are noted by those who are not directly involved.  This is why the observations of the initial raid team as recorded in the logs are of such critical importance.

NGB - On such a basis how accurate do you, in your opinion as a barrister, consider the details 'Message passed by son of Mr Bamber' which are included in the 3.26 telephone call log?

curiousessex  - I would take these words at face value.  However, it is important to view these logs together and in their entirety in order to form a considered opinion on their meaning.  I can follow the argument that the logs suggest that there were two separate calls, one from Jeremy and one from Nevill.  However I do accept that the alternative explanation of a single call from Jeremy can also be supported.  There are some problems with either view and they have been fully canvassed in earlier posts.  Despite my overall opinion that JB is not guilty I am not firm in my view on the correct interpretation of these logs.  The key point is however that the logs were not made available in full to the jury at trial and we do not know what view the jury would have reached on them.

 


Excellent points ngb +1

tyler

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2011, 02:13:PM »
Working on the basis that Nevill was sent toppling out of the chair,when the police smashed the door down,I wonder if this is how Nevill sustained some of his injuries?For instance,the black eyes or cracked skull.

Offline curiousessex

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Re: If no-one disturbed anything - how did police enter the kitchen?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2011, 02:19:PM »
Working on the basis that Nevill was sent toppling out of the chair,when the police smashed the door down,I wonder if this is how Nevill sustained some of his injuries?For instance,the black eyes or cracked skull.

I think it might be very difficult to sustain black eyes when in a state of rigor mortis. I could be wrong though.