Author Topic: Query re forum members  (Read 3194 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2020, 09:15:PM »
Please pull the other leg, my left ankle hurts.

I have never stated Jeremy is innocent, and unless something extraordinary happens like Anne Eaton falling down on her knees and saying, 'Yes, Uncle Bobby and Peter put the blood in the silencer.  I go to church every Sunday now and the Lord Saviour has forgiven me!', it's rather unlikely I will ever consider Jeremy innocent.  In fact, come to think of it, even if it is proved that the blood was planted (I still think it could be proved, which is not to say I think it was planted), that does not mean Jeremy is factually innocent.  He could still be guilty, and I rather suspect he is.

I don't post of Jeremy's innocence, rather I start from the presumption of innocence, a different thing.  My approach to this case, like all cases, is summarised in the words of Sir Frederick Geoffrey Lawrence, Q.C., in his closing speech for the defence in R v Adams.  I suggest you read it: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10311.0.html

As I never tire of reminding people, the presumption of innocence is the only way to approach the case in a fair and neutral manner.  Of course, at the criminal appeal level, the presumption is formally reversed into a presumption of guilt, because Jeremy stands convicted by a jury, but even an appeal judge will, for practical reasons, begin with the presumption of innocence, simply because it's the only way to sensibly test the Crown's case on the appeal points raised, whatever they may be.  By doing so, the court builds a conservative picture of how sustainable the convictions are at that point.

For me, what the presumption of innocence translates to is that, in the absence of persuasive evidence to the contrary, I give Jeremy the benefit of any doubt.  That's not because I like Jeremy or I'm his mate.  I'm not.  I don't like child killers. I repeat, the reason I do this is because it is the only way to test the strength of the Crown's case.

I expect all this will fall on deaf ears, but I hope it will make sense to somebody.

Turning to you and the other dogmatic guilters and your emoticons, I did not say that any of you previously claimed or affected to believe Jeremy innocent.  As you nearly-always do, you twist what I say into something slightly different, so that it suits you rhetorically.  It's a sign of intellectual dishonesty to do this and doesn't reassure me about the validity of anything you say.
That's big of you, considering you believe Jeremy Bamber 96% guilty even on a bad day.

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2020, 09:20:PM »
You're pig-ignorant as usual.

No, I'm right - as usual.  I've been through all the threads and seen all the messages. 

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2020, 09:32:PM »
That's big of you, considering you believe Jeremy Bamber 96% guilty even on a bad day.

You're grandstanding again.  I realise that, as a member of the English chattering classes, you never miss an opportunity to show us how moral you are, but this is supposed to be a discussion forum about the case and related issues, not a soap box for you to show off your fake and contrived 'compassion'.  If you really had any regard for the feelings of the victims, you would stop using that avatar - for a start.

If we're applying the standard that a juror would, then we have to agree that if the evidence is not sufficient to convict, then we are not entitled to convict - or we shouldn't.  I realise that most people, including you, have real trouble wrapping your heads around the concept of a standard of proof and how a strict evidence-based view of a case can differ from one's intuition and suspicions, but your ignorance is not my problem.

I'm essentially just following the rules.  I must add that I don't like people who commit murder, just to emphasise that this - for me - is not a matter of personal or tribal sympathy, it is purely about evidence.
Even if I suspect somebody is factually guilty, I have to also acknowledge reasonable doubt, if there is such doubt.  Here there is.

What is your issue with that, exactly?

If you do take issue with it, can I recommend you write to your local MP and the Lord Chief Justice, as they are the people responsible for setting the rules, and you should take it up with them, not blame me and disrupt this Forum because you want to show off how moral you are.

And on the subject of morality, I don't believe locking up people on the basis of weak or unsafe evidence is very moral, for the reasons I have already explained.  If you disagree on some philosophical basis, then tell us why you disagree, but don't attack people just for applying the rules that are clear and commonly accepted.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2020, 10:24:PM »
You're grandstanding again.  I realise that, as a member of the English chattering classes, you never miss an opportunity to show us how moral you are, but this is supposed to be a discussion forum about the case and related issues, not a soap box for you to show off your fake and contrived 'compassion'. If you really had any regard for the feelings of the victims, you would stop using that avatar - for a start.

If we're applying the standard that a juror would, then we have to agree that if the evidence is not sufficient to convict, then we are not entitled to convict - or we shouldn't.  I realise that most people, including you, have real trouble wrapping your heads around the concept of a standard of proof and how a strict evidence-based view of a case can differ from one's intuition and suspicions, but your ignorance is not my problem.

I'm essentially just following the rules.  I must add that I don't like people who commit murder, just to emphasise that this - for me - is not a matter of personal or tribal sympathy, it is purely about evidence.
Even if I suspect somebody is factually guilty, I have to also acknowledge reasonable doubt, if there is such doubt.  Here there is.

What is your issue with that, exactly?

If you do take issue with it, can I recommend you write to your local MP and the Lord Chief Justice, as they are the people responsible for setting the rules, and you should take it up with them, not blame me and disrupt this Forum because you want to show off how moral you are.

And on the subject of morality, I don't believe locking up people on the basis of weak or unsafe evidence is very moral, for the reasons I have already explained.  If you disagree on some philosophical basis, then tell us why you disagree, but don't attack people just for applying the rules that are clear and commonly accepted.
There's very little difference (if any) between my avatar and this: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10322.0.html

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2020, 11:38:PM »
There's very little difference (if any) between my avatar and this: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10322.0.html

Once again you reply with the upmost dishonesty and disingenuousness, qualities that are your hallmark. 

There is no comparison.  That thread - which you ruined, as you ruin everything by sticking your stupid, pompous, sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical nose into things - was a respectful tribute to the victims and is a single use of a photograph in the public domain that falls within fair dealing under UK copyright law. 

Your continual obstinate use of an avatar showing the victims without the permission of Colin Caffell serves no critical or other functional purpose, is tasteless and offensive, adds an inappropriate emotional dimension to the forum and gives an undeserved air of authority to your posts.  You represent nobody except yourself.  Your repeated claims to be an advocate for Colin Caffell and Julie Smerchanski amount to nothing but narcissism.  Your emotional bullying is disgusting.  This is a discussion forum, not a 'struggle session' for Steve_UK, and we are allowed to have different views and opinions to yours and you have no right to shame us.

I am not fooled and see through you and I will reply to each and every attack you make on me with the upmost scorn and contempt.  Each time you attempt to abuse me, I will abuse you back tenfold and denounce you with vigour.

guest7363

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2020, 08:27:AM »
No, I'm right - as usual.  I've been through all the threads and seen all the messages.
The Fraudulent slip 👍.

Offline Jane

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2020, 08:46:AM »

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2020, 12:34:PM »
The Fraudulent slip 👍.

What's fraudulent about it?

You, Steve and Adam came on here affecting to be neutral or something similar, then you each suddenly become dogmatic guilters.

It's all very interesting and I know that you don't like attention being drawn to it.

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2020, 12:38:PM »

Arrogance

Which part is arrogant?

Arrogance is a rather subjective concept.  You could ascribe arrogance to anybody you dislike, couldn't you.  If, as in your case, it's used simply to dismiss another person or their views, then how is it any different in principle to calling somebody a liar?

It's all just abuse at the end of the day, and all you are doing is demeaning yourself.  Why are you even getting involved in this, Jane?  At least when I use such terms, I do it in response to it being used against me, but like Steve, you come on here looking for a virtual fight. 

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #84 on: September 26, 2020, 02:59:PM »
Once again you reply with the upmost dishonesty and disingenuousness, qualities that are your hallmark. 

There is no comparison.  That thread - which you ruined, as you ruin everything by sticking your stupid, pompous, sanctimonious, self-righteous, hypocritical nose into things - was a respectful tribute to the victims and is a single use of a photograph in the public domain that falls within fair dealing under UK copyright law. 

Your continual obstinate use of an avatar showing the victims without the permission of Colin Caffell serves no critical or other functional purpose, is tasteless and offensive, adds an inappropriate emotional dimension to the forum and gives an undeserved air of authority to your posts.  You represent nobody except yourself.  Your repeated claims to be an advocate for Colin Caffell and Julie Smerchanski amount to nothing but narcissism.  Your emotional bullying is disgusting.  This is a discussion forum, not a 'struggle session' for Steve_UK, and we are allowed to have different views and opinions to yours and you have no right to shame us.

I am not fooled and see through you and I will reply to each and every attack you make on me with the upmost scorn and contempt.  Each time you attempt to abuse me, I will abuse you back tenfold and denounce you with vigour.
Nobody is singling you out for any malicious purpose. It's you who is making yourself a target with what you write and denying any member a reasonable right of reply lest we provoke a temper tantrum within, and contrary to your assertion that there is no such thing as free speech I'm writing things now which will be left by the moderators because it's a genuine point of view, even though it may be different from yours.

You say you are 96% certain on a bad day (on a good day may I presume that that figure reaches as high as 100% or am I going to be wilfully attacked for this?) that Jeremy Bamber is guilty of five murders, yet you loathe childkillers, and Jeremy Bamber is not a predator?

How on earth can you subjoin those statements and expect people to accept them without question? How do you think they make Colin feel? He's a private person and probably will never register with this forum, so yes I am going to speak for him. It's the same with Julie. I'm putting forward their point of view. It's not a personal attack on you (or didn't start out that way), however hypersensitive you have become.

You say Jeremy may have shot Sheila in bed, then stripped the bedclothes and started the laundry in an effort to clean up. Once again you are affronted because somebody challenges you on this ludicrous proposition.

You have made anti-semitic remarks on this site, followed by your own historical perspective of the Second World War (or did you thumb through some David Irving book?) that Adolf Hitler should have been granted a free ride in the East. Once again you have no concept of the offence you have caused not just the Jewish community but the ordinary citizen at large because often you don't follow through your arguments to their logical conclusion.

I wouldn't mind your posts if you didn't negatively comment on so many others', not forgetting of course the number of regulars who have been put off posting altogether due to your new imposed rules of correct orthography at all times (another rule you Sir have broken on occasion). Some of your posts and some of your reasoning I have enjoyed, but it's getting to the stage now where the impact of you as a member of this site may reach a tipping point where the negativity does outweigh the undoubted postive contribution you have at times have made.



« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 03:01:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline JackieD

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2020, 04:29:PM »
Nobody is singling you out for any malicious purpose. It's you who is making yourself a target with what you write and denying any member a reasonable right of reply lest we provoke a temper tantrum within, and contrary to your assertion that there is no such thing as free speech I'm writing things now which will be left by the moderators because it's a genuine point of view, even though it may be different from yours.

You say you are 96% certain on a bad day (on a good day may I presume that that figure reaches as high as 100% or am I going to be wilfully attacked for this?) that Jeremy Bamber is guilty of five murders, yet you loathe childkillers, and Jeremy Bamber is not a predator?

How on earth can you subjoin those statements and expect people to accept them without question? How do you think they make Colin feel? He's a private person and probably will never register with this forum, so yes I am going to speak for him. It's the same with Julie. I'm putting forward their point of view. It's not a personal attack on you (or didn't start out that way), however hypersensitive you have become.

You say Jeremy may have shot Sheila in bed, then stripped the bedclothes and started the laundry in an effort to clean up. Once again you are affronted because somebody challenges you on this ludicrous proposition.

You have made anti-semitic remarks on this site, followed by your own historical perspective of the Second World War (or did you thumb through some David Irving book?) that Adolf Hitler should have been granted a free ride in the East. Once again you have no concept of the offence you have caused not just the Jewish community but the ordinary citizen at large because often you don't follow through your arguments to their logical conclusion.

I wouldn't mind your posts if you didn't negatively comment on so many others', not forgetting of course the number of regulars who have been put off posting altogether due to your new imposed rules of correct orthography at all times (another rule you Sir have broken on occasion). Some of your posts and some of your reasoning I have enjoyed, but it's getting to the stage now where the impact of you as a member of this site may reach a tipping point where the negativity does outweigh the undoubted postive contribution you have at times have made.

What absolute rubbish

Colins a private person ???????
Are you out of your mind???????

He carried out media interviews after trial and told bare faced lies

He had no intention of getting back with Sheila and he knew her state of mind was so back she was planning to kill herself

What a nasty individual? Maybe part of Sheilas mental health problems was because of the physical abuse she suffered at the hands of Colin

Where has Colin documented his part in Sheilas demise
He was actually grinning in the interview after trial and I’m not surprised he played the part of poor Colin like a pro and then fast forward 30 years and he is on Lorraine flogging his rehashed book and telling Lorraine Sheila couldn’t have been the murderer because you would have to be a crack shot ????

Considering Colins part in Sheilas mental health problems he could have kept quiet but he sold her out for the price of a few books

That poor girl she never stood a chance of a happy life
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2020, 04:39:PM »
What are the links between DA and suicide?
? Every day almost 30 women attempt suicide as a result of experiencing domestic abuse


Let’s post some truth on this forum
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Query re forum members
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2020, 05:39:PM »
Nobody is singling you out for any malicious purpose. It's you who is making yourself a target with what you write and denying any member a reasonable right of reply lest we provoke a temper tantrum within, and contrary to your assertion that there is no such thing as free speech I'm writing things now which will be left by the moderators because it's a genuine point of view, even though it may be different from yours.

This is rubbish.  I welcome constructive criticism.  The problem is that you, Adam, Real Justice and others want to come on here and abuse people and hide behind the concepts of 'fair comment' and 'free speech' while doing so.

I think you'll find that the Forum Rules do not, in either letter or spirit, allow the style of posting that you consider to be 'free speech' and 'criticism'. 

You know very well what my objection is but you, Real Justice and Adam continue with your abuse, which is why I treat you with absolute and total contempt.

That is the only way to respond to bullies.

You say you are 96% certain on a bad day (on a good day may I presume that that figure reaches as high as 100% or am I going to be wilfully attacked for this?) that Jeremy Bamber is guilty of five murders, yet you loathe childkillers, and Jeremy Bamber is not a predator?

How on earth can you subjoin those statements and expect people to accept them without question? How do you think they make Colin feel? He's a private person and probably will never register with this forum, so yes I am going to speak for him. It's the same with Julie. I'm putting forward their point of view. It's not a personal attack on you (or didn't start out that way), however hypersensitive you have become.

Here we have an example of your low intellect and ignorance.  I have explained all this, over and over and over and over at length.  You misrepresent me out of plain mischief, conflating two completely different issues: our general attitude to people who commit grave wrongs, on the one hand, and the standard of proof, on the other.

Why do you misrepresent me like this and seek to cause trouble?  You do it because you are a bully and a troublemaker, plain and simple.

I deplore murderers, especially when the act is premeditated.  People who murder children are abhorrent to me.  But there is a requirement to prove the case in law, and unless the case is proved, then the accused must be acquitted and released.

In all criminal cases, the standard of proof is that a jury (or other trier of fact) must be sure.  Sure is a synonym for 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  There will always be a small element of doubt, in virtually every case, even when somebody is caught red-handed, but to convict the doubt must be minor or residual, or concern peripheral matters.

I use percentages to help understand this and I am not the only person who explains it this way.  To me, 'beyond reasonable doubt' means you are 99% sure.  You can never be 100% sure, for the reason given above: there will always be some doubt, even if only because we can't see inside somebody's mind.  Anybody who says they are 100% sure is just arguing beyond reason.

My belief is that Jeremy is most probably guilty, which you could say is a certainty in excess of 90%, and is based on suspicion and intuition and some of the evidence, most of the points having been covered by myself in one or two threads I started.

But I am not 99% certain.  The small amount of doubt is not minor doubt, it concerns quite important things, and as these discussions have gone on, I have to say, I am left unimpressed by the prosecution case and I am certainly not impressed by the guilt camp I encounter online.


You say Jeremy may have shot Sheila in bed, then stripped the bedclothes and started the laundry in an effort to clean up. Once again you are affronted because somebody challenges you on this ludicrous proposition.

I don't recall saying that Jeremy would have had to do the laundry.  Couldn't he have just left the blooded sheets (if any) with other blooded sheets?  I seem to recall reading that the police then burned all that evidence later that day or the day after. 

It is not a ludicrous proposition.

You have made anti-semitic remarks on this site, followed by your own historical perspective of the Second World War (or did you thumb through some David Irving book?) that Adolf Hitler should have been granted a free ride in the East. Once again you have no concept of the offence you have caused not just the Jewish community but the ordinary citizen at large because often you don't follow through your arguments to their logical conclusion.

I have not made anti-Semitic remarks.

You are lying, as you have done previously.  The form your lies take is to twist what I say into something shameful or offensive so that you can then attack me.  You do this because you know you cannot defeat me in an argument.  You're not clever enough.

I know the discussion you are referring to and I am confident I said nothing at all that was anti-Semitic.

You are a liar.

I wouldn't mind your posts if you didn't negatively comment on so many others',

My God, you are complete and total hypocrite!  This very post of yours is an attack on me.  Your hypocrisy is almost psychopathic.  You seem to have no self-awareness at all.

Steve, the very reason for the trouble between us is because of your habit of commenting negatively on people's posts and being personal.  You started all this. 

not forgetting of course the number of regulars who have been put off posting altogether due to your new imposed rules of correct orthography at all times (another rule you Sir have broken on occasion).

You, again, lie.  I have imposed no such rule. 

Let me repeat: the only person here who has criticised spelling is YOU. 

You are a bare-faced liar.

Please also post a list of the people I have offended.  I am virtually certain it will be a list of people who attacked me first.

Some of your posts and some of your reasoning I have enjoyed, but it's getting to the stage now where the impact of you as a member of this site may reach a tipping point where the negativity does outweigh the undoubted postive contribution you have at times have made.

Again, can I remind you of the following:

(i). this is not your forum;
(ii). you have no authority over me or anybody else here, or (probably) anybody anywhere.

You are just a nobody. 

Furthermore, can I remind you that it was your own behaviour that kicked-off the conflagration between us.  You are the one who started all this.  I'm simply responding to your behaviour, Steve.

Likewise, I am sarcastic to Adam because Adam is sarcastic to me and other people he disagrees with.  I am simply responding to Adam's behaviour by dishing out to him what he dishes out to others.

It's called culture.

If the culture is toxic, then that is how people will behave.

I think your real problem is that you have been getting away with toxic behaviour for years and you've become comfortable and you're not used to being called-out on it and challenged, and if we're honest, I think the moderators have been indulgent with you.

They are not coming to your rescue any more, and since you're only getting what you've been dishing out to others, you have no basis for complaint.