Author Topic: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?  (Read 707 times)

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Offline QCChevalier

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 11:47:AM »
@Roch

Room 101??  Was he being threatened with rats when he said that?

Anyway, I don't put much stall in Stan Jones' words about the phone/kitchen in that COLP interview, simply because he is referring to the state of the phone and/or kitchen post-incident.  It is common ground that the phone was working - which, for me, is the important observation.

The point is: There's no phone in the master bedroom and the phone in the upstairs office is behind a locked door.  They don't have mobile phones at that point in time.  On this basis, if we assume Jeremy is telling the truth, then I am deducing that the call to Jeremy was made from the kitchen.  This also makes sense because of where the rifle and magazine are.  Sheila must go downstairs at some point. 

The twins aren't downstairs, they're upstairs.  Nevill is making the call downstairs, not upstairs, and he has to make the call before anybody else is shot, otherwise he would dial 999, surely?  He must also make the call before he is shot, or again he would attempt to dial 999 and he certainly would not be speaking to Jeremy.

This means that in a Sheila scenario, there must be a stand-off between Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen, and more than likely, Nevill makes the call to Jeremy with Sheila present.  The more I think about it, the more I believe he rang Jeremy because it was the first thing that popped into his head in a panicked situation.  All sorts of things would have been running through his mind: his daughter, the safety of the twins and June, his firearms certificate and his reputation as a magistrate, obviously with the twins at the forefront of this mind.

It could be that your scenario fits all this in that Sheila goes downstairs and intends then to return upstairs with the rifle, but Nevill stops her in the kitchen.  She then starts ranting and raving and that may have gone on for some time, before a confused and worried Nevill rings Jeremy, maybe as a way of keeping her in the kitchen, but the ploy backfires as Jeremy's involvement only makes her angrier.

As for Sheila's motivations, I am not sure because I am unsure whether loss of custody would have bothered her.  That might sound like an odd thing to say, but she was ill and may even have welcomed Colin's offer to take on the burden on the understanding she had contact.  On the other hand, Dr. Ferguson seemed to think a threat of loss of custody would have been cataclysmic for her psychologically.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 11:48:AM by QCChevalier »

Offline lookout

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 12:18:PM »
All Sheila had felt that she'd had in her life were her boys. Nobody and nothing---in Sheila's mind---was going to take them away from her. Is it any wonder she did what she did ??

Offline lookout

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2020, 12:23:PM »
You don't have to have MH issues to know/ realise that your children are going to be removed from you. Ask any mother how they'd react ! They're not going to sit back are they ? Sheila's " fight " mechanism kicked in good style. Normal reaction is to go into hysterics, Sheila did this using a rifle----easily done.

Offline Roch

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2020, 12:25:PM »
@Roch

Room 101??  Was he being threatened with rats when he said that?

Anyway, I don't put much stall in Stan Jones' words about the phone/kitchen in that COLP interview, simply because he is referring to the state of the phone and/or kitchen post-incident.  It is common ground that the phone was working - which, for me, is the important observation.

The point is: There's no phone in the master bedroom and the phone in the upstairs office is behind a locked door.  They don't have mobile phones at that point in time.  On this basis, if we assume Jeremy is telling the truth, then I am deducing that the call to Jeremy was made from the kitchen.  This also makes sense because of where the rifle and magazine are.  Sheila must go downstairs at some point. 

The twins aren't downstairs, they're upstairs.  Nevill is making the call downstairs, not upstairs, and he has to make the call before anybody else is shot, otherwise he would dial 999, surely?  He must also make the call before he is shot, or again he would attempt to dial 999 and he certainly would not be speaking to Jeremy.

This means that in a Sheila scenario, there must be a stand-off between Nevill and Sheila in the kitchen, and more than likely, Nevill makes the call to Jeremy with Sheila present.  The more I think about it, the more I believe he rang Jeremy because it was the first thing that popped into his head in a panicked situation.  All sorts of things would have been running through his mind: his daughter, the safety of the twins and June, his firearms certificate and his reputation as a magistrate, obviously with the twins at the forefront of this mind.

It could be that your scenario fits all this in that Sheila goes downstairs and intends then to return upstairs with the rifle, but Nevill stops her in the kitchen.  She then starts ranting and raving and that may have gone on for some time, before a confused and worried Nevill rings Jeremy, maybe as a way of keeping her in the kitchen, but the ploy backfires as Jeremy's involvement only makes her angrier.

As for Sheila's motivations, I am not sure because I am unsure whether loss of custody would have bothered her.  That might sound like an odd thing to say, but she was ill and may even have welcomed Colin's offer to take on the burden on the understanding she had contact.  On the other hand, Dr. Ferguson seemed to think a threat of loss of custody would have been cataclysmic for her psychologically.

Yes, I think Dr Ferguson used the term catastrophic. 

In your scenario for an inititial Nevill / Sheila confrontation in the kitchen (I think you have summed up Nevill's dilemma very well), are you factoring in that Sheila has spotted the rifle earlier in the night, after dinner and kept quiet about this? She may not even had made the connection until later on, during her rumination. Or, perhaps she made the connection early on, and realised that an opportunity presented itself?  She chose during the night to avoid interference?  Are we also factoring in the possibility that Jeremy left the rifle out deliberately ie in collusion with Sheila - or - do you think it more likely that Jeremy was merely was lazy and subsequently, Nevill was unobservant? If the former, some prior communication would have needed to occur between Jeremy and Sheila, in order for both to have an understanding.  I take it that after the phone call to Jeremy, Nevill attempts to intervene upstairs and this is where he is forced to turn tail, retreating down the stairs with shots fired?

But when Sheila goes upstairs after the initial confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, where does she go first and who does she fire upon first?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 12:32:PM by Roch »

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2020, 01:27:PM »
Yes, I think Dr Ferguson used the term catastrophic. 

In your scenario for an inititial Nevill / Sheila confrontation in the kitchen (I think you have summed up Nevill's dilemma very well), are you factoring in that Sheila has spotted the rifle earlier in the night, after dinner and kept quiet about this? She may not even had made the connection until later on, during her rumination. Or, perhaps she made the connection early on, and realised that an opportunity presented itself?  She chose during the night to avoid interference?  Are we also factoring in the possibility that Jeremy left the rifle out deliberately ie in collusion with Sheila - or - do you think it more likely that Jeremy was merely was lazy and subsequently, Nevill was unobservant? If the former, some prior communication would have needed to occur between Jeremy and Sheila, in order for both to have an understanding.  I take it that after the phone call to Jeremy, Nevill attempts to intervene upstairs and this is where he is forced to turn tail, retreating down the stairs with shots fired?

But when Sheila goes upstairs after the initial confrontation with Nevill in the kitchen, where does she go first and who does she fire upon first?

In the past, I had always thought that Jeremy encouraging Sheila could have been a possibility, but when you yourself mentioned it recently on a different thread, that prompted me to go back to it and have another think about it.

On reflection, I find it unlikely for the reason that Jeremy would not know and could not control the outcome, and frankly, he would surely doubt Sheila's ability to complete such a massacre 'successfully' (if that's the right word). 

I don't believe there was any prior communication between them along the lines you suggest, because Jeremy would not have been able to rely on Sheila and it would have made no sense if his goal was inheritance. What if Sheila told somebody?  I just find it rather implausible.  The only caveat is: we don't know the extent of Sheila's experience with guns, and also, if Jeremy's motive was something other than inheritance, then maybe he colluded with Sheila, but we can't see in his mind, and as explained, how could he rely on and trust Sheila? 

I really think it is a simple choice: Jeremy or Sheila. 

If Jeremy is innocent, then he is culpable for leaving the rifle and magazine out, which must have been carelessness or sheer laziness, though in mitigation, Nevill was the certificated firearms owner and must bear ultimate responsibility, and hardly set a good example in that respect.  He couldn't even be bothered to fit a proper lock on the gun cupboard.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 01:28:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline JackieD

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2020, 01:42:PM »
Without question reasonable doubt
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline JackieD

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2020, 10:16:PM »
Here is one suggestion...

Four years ago, the CT announced that a letter several pages long, had come to light addressed to 'Mummy', which was claimed as referring to Sheila's natural mother Christine (and claimed that Sheila described June Bamber as 'Mother').

They claimed there were a 'number of angry references to her ex-husband the twin’s father, Colin Caffell who wanted full custody of the children'.

Apparently within the letter, Sheila indicated that she would be 'in the other world,' after the police arrive, and wrote 'my babys and me we go to our rest.'

Furthermore, she made reference to 'us' being put into a deep trench after the police arrive.

The CT claimed to have received a 'preliminary overview of the material' 'provided to a handwriting expert - who believes that the material was written by Sheila Caffell'.

Apparently the letter was revealed in 2011.  I am unsure why it was not acted upon sooner.  However, I'm aware that the CT were made up of volunteers and were/are dependent upon funding for expert assessments / forensic analysis etc. 

As most people know, Jeremy Bamber claimed there was a conversation around the dinner table regarding 'fostering' about which, people have argued either wouldn't have been mentioned at all - or - may have been mentioned in the context extra help for Sheila.  Perhaps Nevill and June were worried that they might lose contact with the twins, if the situation continued without some type of intervention or influence brought to bear?  Perhaps they sensed that in the future Colin might act decisively, to shield the twins from June's religious bent?

We know that instead of portraying Sheila as having been enraged or merely annoyed or sulky, Bamber portrays her as having seemed vacant.  If his portrayal is accurate, what may have been behind her vacant stare?  What might Sheila have ruminated on, as late evening crossed over in to the small hours? 

Could it be that Sheila had lost all hope that she could keep her babies with her in this world?  Did she reason that if she could not keep her babies with her in this world, her only choice was to keep them with her in the next?

When Sheila had 'gone berserk' with one of Nevill's guns, could it be that in her own mind, she was simply enacting the safeguarding of her self and her babies as a unit, together, in the next world?

Is it possible that either Nevill or June or Nevill and June were killed by Sheila because they interfered with Sheila's mission to send herself and her babies to their rest? 

If Sheila has shot the twins and thinks they may be dead - she has to then ensure that she herself is killed, in order to be with them on the other side.  Otherwise, she will have sent her babies over to the other side without the protection of their mother.  If Sheila was prevented from joining her babies by the intervention of one or both parents, might she not have experienced anguish, panic and an incredible sense of urgency to complete her mission? 

If Sheila has shot the twins but is unsure as to whether they are dead, the situation is no better for her - because there is now no going back.  Again, in this scenario, Sheila must complete her mission.   

We cannot know to what extent Sheila may have experienced auditory or visual hallucinations but we can try to imagine her as experiencing thoughts that we would view as warped but which she may have viewed as being cogent and meaningful.  Perhaps even forceful to the point of being demonic in their insistence (that she carry out her duty). 

I don't think Nevill or June stood much of a chance. They didn't know what they were up against.  It was the small hours and the situation was one of pure dread.  Nevill is presented with a situation of having to either kill or save his own daughter - who may be locked up for years in an institution.  He cant save her without possibly losing his own life.  Can he bring himself to kill her?  Can he overpower her with his wounds?  What will happen to his wife if he fails?  The anguish and dread they must have felt regarding the fate of the twins is horrific.

You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline Hartley.

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2020, 10:44:PM »
You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???

I think Rochy is just pondering on a possible scenario that Sheila chose to kill herself and her children, Nevill and June were actually only killed because they interfered and tried to stop her.

I don't think he is making a point, just suggesting a possible scenario. It's not one which I recall being voiced before.

Offline Hartley.

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2020, 11:01:PM »
I'm interested in what people think of my speculation and reasoning, regarding one or more parents having  interfered with the aims and completion of Sheila's mission.  Do people think my reasoning regarding Sheila's aims that night rings true?

It seems reasonable to me.

Obviously the evidence of the silencer, JM's claims etc remain a hurdle but without that (I.e. if it was planted/doctored  evidence and false statements) then on the face of it your suggestion seems potentially plausible.

Interesting thought certainly better than the simplistic narrative of 'she just went mad and killed everyone'.

Offline Adam

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2020, 11:03:PM »
Hopefully Roch will give a more detailed scenario of events in the minutes before & during the massacre. Ditto Mike.

Mike's scenario is 'by shooting them'.

Roch's is 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls'.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Roch

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2020, 11:06:PM »
You have not explained yourself??

What exactly is your point ???

Hartley has summed it up well.  I think Sheila was on a mission to take herself and her sons to the other side / heaven.  She saw the gun and didn't go to bed that night. She waited until the early hours when everyone would be asleep.

I think Nevill was killed because he tried to prevent her from carrying it out. I'm not sure whether June was killed for the same reason or whether she was just shot by Sheila regardless. I suspect Sheila's thinking was obviously paranoid and she experienced some form of hallucinatory thoughts / warped reasoning. She can't allow the twins to go to heaven without her and so once she has shot them, she must kill herself to join them. Nothing can stop her. This is what Nevill and June were really faced with when they became aware of the incident.

I think what happened was, when it finally came down to it, she hesitated and was left alone in the house with the corpses of her family that she had killed. The TFG raid brought things to a conclusion and she died quite some time after the others.

It's a desperately sad situation.

Offline Roch

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2020, 11:11:PM »
Hopefully Roch will give a more detailed scenario of events in the minutes before & during the massacre. Ditto Mike.

Mike's scenario is 'by shooting them'.

Roch's is 'Sheila shot them but I can't explain the phone calls'.

QC had a decent go of fitting the alleged call from Nevill to Jeremy, in to my scenario.

Offline Hartley.

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2020, 11:27:PM »
QC had a decent go of fitting the alleged call from Nevill to Jeremy, in to my scenario.

I haven't seen his suggestion, but I could probably put something together, I guess it would involve Nevill going to the kitchen to make the phone call, going back upstairs before fleeing back to the kitchen again whilst under fire.

Offline JackieD

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2020, 11:29:PM »
Hartley has summed it up well.  I think Sheila was on a mission to take herself and her sons to the other side / heaven.  She saw the gun and didn't go to bed that night. She waited until the early hours when everyone would be asleep.

I think Nevill was killed because he tried to prevent her from carrying it out. I'm not sure whether June was killed for the same reason or whether she was just shot by Sheila regardless. I suspect Sheila's thinking was obviously paranoid and she experienced some form of hallucinatory thoughts / warped reasoning. She can't allow the twins to go to heaven without her and so once she has shot them, she must kill herself to join them. Nothing can stop her. This is what Nevill and June were really faced with when they became aware of the incident.

I think what happened was, when it finally came down to it, she hesitated and was left alone in the house with the corpses of her family that she had killed. The TFG raid brought things to a conclusion and she died quite some time after the others.

It's a desperately sad situation.

Hartley is the last person who would sum something up honestly

I am talking about the letter
You always make these comments as if you are part of the campaign team and then leave it

Was there a letter or not
What did the handwriting expert say
Do you not realise the importance of a suicide letter
Or has it all been made up
I am sure if a suicide letter exists Hartley will then admit Jeremy is most likely innocent
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline Roch

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Re: What caused Sheila Caffell to kill her parents?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2020, 11:35:PM »
I haven't seen his suggestion, but I could probably put something together, I guess it would involve Nevill going to the kitchen to make the phone call, going back upstairs before fleeing back to the kitchen again whilst under fire.

Carbon copy virtually. He has Nevill coming downstairs and confronting Sheila in the kitchen before shots are fired. While he's making the call she goes upstairs and he ends call. Then as you say, he retreats under fire.