Author Topic: Jeremy v nevill  (Read 732 times)

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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2020, 08:51:PM »
Have you got a source that there were guns in the washroom?

It is in one of the statements.  I would need to find it.  (I must admit, it may be apocryphal and I've been led by the nose).

Offline ilovebooze

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2020, 02:18:PM »
I think what the most important question is when did nevill first awake when Bamber entered the farmhouse

Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2020, 02:29:PM »
I think what the most important question is when did nevill first awake when Bamber entered the farmhouse

Nevill woke as he was receiving his first two face shots. Next to June in or by the bed

If he was awake before then, Bamber would not have got the rifle within inches of Nevill's face.
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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2020, 02:32:PM »
I think what the most important question is when did nevill first awake when Bamber entered the farmhouse

Agreed.  Personally I think there are holes in the prosecution account of what happened that make it difficult (but not impossible) for Jeremy to have done this.  I mentioned somewhere on another thread that the only way the prosecution case can hang together in one sense is if Nevill caught Jeremy downstairs before the shooting started, but if that happened, then you're left with the problem of Nevill is getting shot upstairs.  On the other hand, if we say Nevill was first shot upstairs, then was he asleep or out of bed?  Adam is saying Nevill was asleep.  That, to me, just seems incredible.  And why does Nevill run down the stairs away from his own family?  Away from the twins?  Especially if Jeremy is out of ammunition.  There are just so many questions about it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 02:33:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline ilovebooze

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2020, 02:37:PM »
Nevill woke as he was receiving his first two face shots. Next to June in or by the bed

If he was awake before then, Bamber would not have got the rifle within inches of Nevill's face.
  why wouldnt he?

Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2020, 02:39:PM »
Agreed.  Personally I think there are holes in the prosecution account of what happened that make it difficult (but not impossible) for Jeremy to have done this.  I mentioned somewhere on another thread that the only way the prosecution case can hang together in one sense is if Nevill caught Jeremy downstairs before the shooting started, but if that happened, then you're left with the problem of Nevill is getting shot upstairs.  On the other hand, if we say Nevill was first shot upstairs, then was he asleep or out of bed?  Adam is saying Nevill was asleep.  That, to me, just seems incredible.  And why does Nevill run down the stairs away from his own family?  Away from the twins?  Especially if Jeremy is out of ammunition.  There are just so many questions about it.

People are often asleep around 2am. As the twins, June & Sheila were.

Nevill woke as Bamber opened his 9 shots on him & June. Meaning Bamber was only able to get two face shots.  If Nevill was awake before this, Bamber would have got no close range face shots. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 02:41:PM by Adam »
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Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2020, 02:47:PM »
  why wouldnt he?

Because Nevill would have stopped Bamber from pointing a rifle inches from his head and firing, twice. Self defence.

Bamber would also be aiming at a moving target. So much harder to be so accurrate. Once Nevill was out of bed & on the move, Bamber only managed a grazing elbow shot & a shoulder shot.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 02:49:PM by Adam »
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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2020, 02:58:PM »
People are often asleep around 2am. As the twins, June & Sheila were.

Nevill woke as Bamber opened his 9 shots on him & June. Meaning Bamber was only able to get two face shots.  If Nevill was awake before this, Bamber would have got no close range face shots.

I'm not taking issue with people being asleep at that time, and I agree that 2 a.m. is a reasonable sort of time for the incident. 

However, the point is whether this fits together.  You are saying Nevill was shot in his sleep.  Let's err on the side of generosity for the Crown and say that Nevill was stirred by Jeremy moving around or entering the room.  Nevill is still shot in bed but there's no blood on the bed sheets or in the room itself.  And somehow, a 61 year old man who will be sleepy/drowsy, in pain, in shock, etc., manages to barge past Jeremy and go all the way to the kitchen without leaving blood trail and without Jeremy catching him up. 

Also, we have Jeremy putting five shots into June, whereas you'd think Jeremy would focus more on Nevill.  Again, let's give you the benefit of the doubt on that and say that Jeremy shot them both in some sort of arc pattern and Nevill caught two and June was nearest and started towards Jeremy first.  That seems to be the only way to explain it, but you say Nevill must be out of bed immediately?

Sorry, to me, it doesn't stack up.  And wouldn't June be cowering in bed rather than trying to do a kung-fu set-piece on Jeremy?  I know she was in the S.O.E. during the War, but she was a typist.

You've also got this issue of what happened in the twins' bedroom, which is a related point to this because it determined what ammunition was available.  Looking at the cases in that room, the twins have been shot in two separate fusillades, which to me makes sense.  It means that Jeremy has first shot them six times in an arc pattern and presumably killed them, then returned later for a second round of shots 'to make sure'.  That being the case, he must have had five cartridges for the master bedroom, assuming a cartridge in the breech and also assuming the lost bullet happens later - again, we're giving the Crown the benefit of the doubt.  He wouldn't use all that ammunition on June, would he.  We also assume that he doesn't lose any bullets in the master bedroom at this stage, which seems unlikely.

It just doesn't add up to me.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 03:03:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2020, 03:07:PM »
I'm not taking issue with people being asleep at that time, and I agree that 2 a.m. is a reasonable sort of time for the incident. 

However, the point is whether this fits together.  You are saying Nevill was shot in his sleep.  Let's err on the side of generosity for the Crown and say that Nevill was stirred by Jeremy moving around or entering the room.  Nevill is still shot in bed but there's no blood on the bed sheets or in the room itself.  And somehow, a 61 year old man who will be sleepy/drowsy, in pain, in shock, etc., manages to barge past Jeremy and go all the way to the kitchen without leaving blood trail and without Jeremy catching him up. 

Also, we have Jeremy putting five shots into June, whereas you'd think Jeremy would focus more on Nevill.  Again, let's give you the benefit of the doubt on that and say that Jeremy shot them both in some sort of arc pattern and Nevill caught two and June was nearest and started towards Jeremy first.  That seems to be the only way to explain it, but you say Nevill must be out of bed immediately?

Sorry, to me, it doesn't stack up.

You've also got this issue of what happened in the twins' bedroom, which is a related point to this because it determined what ammunition was available.  Looking at the cases in that room, the twins have been shot in two separate fusillades, which to me makes sense.  It means that Jeremy has first shot them six times in an arc pattern and presumably killed them, then returned later for a second round of shots 'to make sure'.  That being the case, he must have had five cartridges for the master bedroom, assuming a cartridge in the breech and the lost bullet happens later.  He wouldn't use all that ammunition on June, would he.  We also assume that he doesn't lose any bullets in the master bedroom at this stage, which seems unlikely.

It just doesn't add up to me.

The twins would have been shot once each. Meaning 9 bullets for Nevill & June.

Nevill & June were in bed asleep when Bamber opened fire from June's side of the bed. Nevill waking & moving as he received his first two face shots.

There is a seperate thread on the blood trial just created. Although there is no source regarding the stair carpet anyway.

Nevill got past Bamber & went downstairs. Nothing surprising there. He was still a big man despite having been shot 4 times.

Not sure how it can be simplified more.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2020, 03:21:PM »
The twins would have been shot once each. Meaning 9 bullets for Nevill & June.

Nevill & June were in bed asleep when Bamber opened fire from June's side of the bed. Nevill waking & moving as he received his first two face shots.

There is a seperate thread on the blood trial just created. Although there is no source regarding the stair carpet anyway.

Nevill got past Bamber & went downstairs. Nothing surprising there. He was still a big man despite having been shot 4 times.

Not sure how it can be simplified more.

You start from the assumption that the twins were shot once each.  I don't accept the evidence supports that assumption. 

Moreover, if we accept what you say, that would mean Jeremy returns to the twins' bedroom to shoot them six more times rather than two more times, and he would have to do so from two different positions. 

Which makes more sense? 

Scenario A: He shoots them six times in an arc pattern at close range, then returns later and shoots them twice more at intermediate range 'to make sure'. 

Scenario B: He shoots them twice at close range, then returns later and shoots them six more times in two different positions, going up close, then back to the threshold to shoot twice more (or vice versa).

To me, Scenario A seems the more natural and economical.

Bear in mind in all this also that you are not taking into account lost bullets, of which there are many.  The truth is - and I do not believe even the most dogmatic pro-guilt person can deny this - for Jeremy to have done this would have been extremely risky.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 03:24:PM by QCChevalier »

Online lookout

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2020, 03:22:PM »
Nothing simple, as you put it Adam. Although you and your cohorts would believe it to be so .

Nevill didn't receive facial shots in the bedroom-----source ?
How would Nevill have got past JB after having been shot in the face ?

You've clearly lost the plot, so I'd give up if I were you.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2020, 03:26:PM »
Nothing simple, as you put it Adam. Although you and your cohorts would believe it to be so .

Nevill didn't receive facial shots in the bedroom-----source ?
How would Nevill have got past JB after having been shot in the face ?

You've clearly lost the plot, so I'd give up if I were you.

Well, to be fair to Adam, it's not impossible.  The point is more that it is difficult, to the point of being - as I described it - "incredible".  Again, in fairness, we can make allowances, though.  We could say that Nevill had stirred and was already awake, maybe up and out of bed and about to leave the master bedroom.  There are possible ways of making aspects of it fit - but as you say, Lookout, we're still left with the problem of how Nevill manages to get past Jeremy and why he runs towards the kitchen and away from his family?

It just, to me, doesn't fit.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 03:27:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2020, 03:27:PM »
You start from the assumption that the twins were shot once each.  I don't accept the evidence supports that assumption. 

Moreover, if we accept what you say, that would mean Jeremy returns to the twins' bedroom to shoot them six more times rather than two more times, adn he would have to do so from two different positions. 

Which makes more sense? 

Scenario A: He shoots them six times in an arc pattern at close range, then returns later and shoots them twice more at intermediate range 'to make sure'. 

Scenario B: He shoots them twice at close range, then returns later and shoots them six more times in two different positions, going up close, then back to the threshold to shoot twice more (or vice versa).

To me, Scenario A seems the more natural. 

Bear in mind in all this also that you are not taking into account lost bullets, of which there are many.  The truth is - and I do not believe even the most dogmatic pro-guilt person can deny this - for Jeremy to have done this would have been extremely risky.

Bamber went upstairs fully loaded - 11 bullets. At this time he may have been going for an 11 shot massacre.

Shooting the twins twice negates two targets straight away & wakes no one.

He then has 8/9 bullets for Nevill & June, dependant on whether he is going for an 11 shot massacre.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2020, 03:28:PM »
Bamber went upstairs fully loaded - 11 bullets. At this time he may have been going for an 11 shot massacre.

Shooting the twins twice negates two targets straight away & wakes no one.

He then has 8/9 bullets for Nevill & June, dependant on whether he is going for an 11 shot massacre.

That's your view.  I'm afraid I will have to disagree with you, Adam, on the basis of the evidence.

Offline Adam

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Re: Jeremy v nevill
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2020, 03:30:PM »
Nothing simple, as you put it Adam. Although you and your cohorts would believe it to be so .

Nevill didn't receive facial shots in the bedroom-----source ?
How would Nevill have got past JB after having been shot in the face ?

You've clearly lost the plot, so I'd give up if I were you.

The evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom. Six of his 8 shots were head shots. The two facial shots were in the bedroom.

Nevill got past Bamber who was now out of bullets. There was then the violent kitchen fight.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.