Author Topic: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.  (Read 735 times)

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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 12:30:PM »
I think we are either open to state sponsored deception or we are not. Like I say, the Saudi's tried their hand at in Turkey, with CCTV and body double etc. Their operation was somewhat less polished than our own forays in to these type of acts.

One of the issues that interests me regarding the trial, was the decision not to present crime scene images but to substitute them with simulated crime scene images instead. I wondered whether this had ever been done before.

Do you have a source for this?

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 12:48:PM »
Do you have them Roch?

Hi Steve, it seems only the first episode is available on the link to that site you posted further up. All FOUR episodes can be watched from this link: https://www.richplanet.net/richp_genre.php?ref=266&part=1&gen=99

There are a further three videos featuring the researcher John Aspray, asking for help to 'Find Tommy': https://www.richplanet.net/richp_genre.php?ref=276&part=1&gen=99  The inference being that he seems to have 'disappeared' from within the prison system.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 06:40:PM by Roch »

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 01:51:PM »
Do you have a source for this?

Off the top of my head, I believe the researcher and activist Nick Kollerstrom attended the trial and has subsequently spoken about the trial on several occasions. He is featured in one of the four episodes of the RDH investigation, discussing the trial.

The former MP Louise Mensch has expressed concerns about the trial but I cannot find her article. She was criticised for speaking out.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:04:PM by Roch »

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 02:00:PM »
Off the top of my head, I believe the researcher and activist Nick Kellerstrom attended the trial and has subsequently spoken about the trial on several occasions. He is featured in one of the four episodes of the RDH investigation, descussing the trial.

The former MP Louise Mensch has expressed concerns about the trial but I cannot find her article. She was criticised for speaking out.

I will entertain anything as long as there is evidence.

Do you have a hypothesis?  Or would you prefer to start from the evidence and work back?  It can be done either way.

I think this is one of those cases where it probably would be better to start with the facts and known evidence and work backwards and see what we come up with.

I 'start from the start', so in the Mair case, the first pieces of evidence I'd need are:

- official confirmation that Jo Cox died, how she died, when and where - i.e. death certificate;
- official certificate of conviction for Thomas Mair.

The next piece of evidence is Thomas Mair's version of what happened and maybe permission from him to access the case files. 

Anyway, that's the way I would approach it.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:02:PM by QCChevalier »

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 02:11:PM »
I will entertain anything as long as there is evidence.

Do you have a hypothesis?  Or would you prefer to start from the evidence and work back?  It can be done either way.

I think this is one of those cases where it probably would be better to start with the facts and known evidence and work backwards and see what we come up with.

I 'start from the start', so in the Mair case, the first pieces of evidence I'd need are:

- official confirmation that Jo Cox died, how she died, when and where - i.e. death certificate;
- official certificate of conviction for Thomas Mair.

The next piece of evidence is Thomas Mair's version of what happened and maybe permission from him to access the case files. 

Anyway, that's the way I would approach it.

I will have to get back to you on this.

The four episodes are not available in the link provided by Steve UK. I have placed the proper link above. 

Thomas Mair is not communicating. Attempts to communicate with him resulted in plain clothes intervention. Thomas Mair did not communicate at his trial or during police interviewing. His family were not allowed to attend his trial and the court portraits of him at his trial, do not look like him - something which family members have noted.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 02:18:PM by Roch »

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 02:42:PM »
I will have to get back to you on this.

The four episodes are not available in the link provided by Steve UK. I have placed the proper link above. 

Thomas Mair is not communicating. Attempts to communicate with him resulted in plain clothes intervention. Thomas Mair did not communicate at his trial or during police interviewing. His family were not allowed to attend his trial and the court portraits of him at his trial, do not look like him - something which family members have noted.

Are you saying you've tried to write to him and then had a visit from the police?

Offline David1819

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 04:27:PM »
This is just silly. The guy was seen in broad daylight committing the crime.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 04:30:PM »
This is just silly. The guy was seen in broad daylight committing the crime.

Don't cramp my style, David.  My bet's on the Hunched Man for this one.  He gets all over and he's been at it for years.

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 06:46:PM »
Are you saying you've tried to write to him and then had a visit from the police?

No, as per second link in post 18 above (this time a three parts video), the researcher John Aspray attempted various methods to contact Tommy but was unsuccessful.  It triggered a visit from plain clothes police, ostensibly to assess Aspray for 'far right' leanings - though he suspects this was not their real motive.

RDH attempted to contact the main prosecution witness, which triggered a warning from police.

This is just silly. The guy was seen in broad daylight committing the crime.

Was he?

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 07:07:PM »
No, as per second link in post 18 above (this time a three parts video), the researcher John Aspray attempted various methods to contact Tommy but was unsuccessful.  It triggered a visit from plain clothes police, ostensibly to assess Aspray for 'far right' leanings - though he suspects this was not their real motive.

Well that won't worry me, they've already been to my house. 

attempted to contact the main prosecution witness, which triggered a warning from police.

I'm not worried by that. I'll contact who I like.

Was he?

To be fair, David is correct: he was witnessed in broad daylight.  Of course, eye-witness evidence is going to be quite unreliable unless somebody who knows him sees him do it.  If it's people who don't know him, then there will be huge variations in the physical descriptions given, simply because the poor old witnesses can't have known they were about to see somebody get shot and stabbed in the middle of the high street of a placid West Yorkshire village.  It must have been quite a shock, and having to remember whether he had a beard or a moustache must have been quite low down on their list of priorities.

That brings me to an interesting point.  If I understand correctly, Mr Mair lived in Birstall, and I think he was generally known and recognised, having lived there for many years and volunteered locally.  He was also a local gardener.  So why didn't anybody recognise him?  Or did they recognise him and we just don't know that aspect of the case?

Would you accept that if it turns out he was positively identified as the assailant by somebody who knew him, then it's case closed?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:09:PM by QCChevalier »

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 07:25:PM »

To be fair, David is correct: he was witnessed in broad daylight.  Of course, eye-witness evidence is going to be quite unreliable unless somebody who knows him sees him do it.  If it's people who don't know him, then there will be huge variations in the physical descriptions given, simply because the poor old witnesses can't have known they were about to see somebody get shot and stabbed in the middle of the high street of a placid West Yorkshire village.  It must have been quite a shock, and having to remember whether he had a beard or a moustache must have been quite low down on their list of priorities.

No offence meant .. but I interpret your first sentence as being at odds with the rest of the paragraph.

That brings me to an interesting point.  If I understand correctly, Mr Mair lived in Birstall, and I think he was generally known and recognised, having lived there for many years and volunteered locally.  He was also a local gardener.  So why didn't anybody recognise him?  Or did they recognise him and we just don't know that aspect of the case?

There can only be two answers: either nobody present knew Mair; or he couldn't be recognised, on account of not being involved in the incident.

Would you accept that if it turns out he was positively identified as the assailant by somebody who knew him, then it's case closed?

It's a bit late for that isn't it?  Have you seen the footage and court portraits?  Something has gone very awry here. 
Are you certain you have seen all four episodes?  The would account for approximately 3 hours viewing.

Offline David1819

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 07:26:PM »
Don't cramp my style, David.  My bet's on the Hunched Man for this one.  He gets all over and he's been at it for years.

If its being mentioned by Richard D Hall then you can safely say its crazy baloney. The guy has made a career out of entertaining the intellectually disabled and mentally ill.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 07:38:PM »
No offence meant .. but I interpret your first sentence as being at odds with the rest of the paragraph.

What I'm getting at is that, officially, he was seen (but not necessarily witnessed) doing this, which diminishes (but doesn't entirely undermine) the plausibility of what you are driving at.  However, without knowing more about the case, I can't say to what extent witness evidence was considered probative.

By the way, it's a paradox to say this, but it's also true that just because witness evidence is inherently unreliable in the sense of a wont of accuracy, it needn't follow that it is lacking in credibility.  If I say, 'Yes, that's the man', I may not be able to remember if he had a beard or green eyes or whatever, but I may still pick him out.

There can only be two answers: either nobody present knew Mair; or he couldn't be recognised, on account of not being involved in the incident.

There's a third and a fourth possibility:

(iii). He was recognised by a witness who knew him and thus he was positively-identified as the assailant.

(iv). He was followed by a witness who did or did not know him, and thus he was positively-identified as the assailant.

It's a bit late for that isn't it?  Have you seen the footage and court portraits?  Something has gone very awry here. 
Are you certain you have seen all four episodes?  The would account for approximately 3 hours viewing.

I see a flaw in your reasoning here, which is that you are starting from the tendentious assumption that it wasn't him in the dock.

Let's consider three further facts:

1. As he attacked poor Jo Cox, the assailant shouted, "Freedom for Britain, Death to Traitors."

2. At his first appearance before Dewsbury Magistrates (I think it was Dewsbury, I'm going from memory), when asked to confirm his name, the man stood in the dock said or shouted: "Freedom for Britain, Death to Traitors".

3. A man known as Thomas Alexander Mair has not been seen in Birstall since 16th. June 2016.  He was - apparently - a socially withdrawn man in some respects, but he wasn't a hermit.  Lots of people knew him and he had friends, family and acquaintances.

Points 1 and 2 tell me there is a link between the man in the dock and the tragic killing of Jo Cox.  Not that it proves anything, but it tells me that the man arraigned was the man suspected of the killing. 

Point 3 tells me that Thomas Mair has gone somewhere.  Where has he gone?  On holiday?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:54:PM by QCChevalier »

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 07:52:PM »
If its being mentioned by Richard D Hall then you can safely say its crazy baloney. The guy has made a career out of entertaining the intellectually disabled and mentally ill.

This discussion reminds me of that souciant and pretentious, but I have to say rather good, Jean Baudrillard book, 'The Gulf War Did Not Take Place' - today's recommend reading.

I don't agree that this is a waste of time.  I consider that this is actually a very useful 'thinking exercise'.

How do we prove something happened?

Can we believe what we're told?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:53:PM by QCChevalier »

Online Roch

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Re: Thomas Mair and the Killing of Jo Cox, M.P.
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 08:14:PM »
What I'm getting at is that, officially, he was seen (but not necessarily witnessed) doing this, which diminishes (but doesn't entirely undermine) the plausibility of what you are driving at.  However, without knowing more about the case, I can't say to what extent witness evidence was considered probative.

By the way, it's a paradox to say this, but it's also true that just because witness evidence is inherently unreliable in the sense of a wont of accuracy, it needn't follow that it is lacking in credibility.  If I say, 'Yes, that's the man', I may not be able to remember if he had a beard or green eyes or whatever, but I may still pick him out.

There's a third and a fourth possibility:

(iii). He was recognised by a witness who knew him and thus he was positively-identified as the assailant.

(iv). He was followed by a witness who did or did not know him, and thus he was positively-identified as the assailant.

I see a flaw in your reasoning here, which is that you are starting from the tendentious assumption that it wasn't him in the dock.

Let's consider three further facts:

1. As he attacked poor Jo Cox, the assailant shouted, "Freedom for Britain, Death to Traitors."

2. At his first appearance before Dewsbury Magistrates (I think it was Dewsbury, I'm going from memory), when asked to confirm his name, the man stood in the dock said or shouted: "Freedom for Britain, Death to Traitors".

3. A man known as Thomas Alexander Mair has not been seen in Birstall since 16th. June 2016.  He was - apparently - a socially withdrawn man in some respects, but he wasn't a hermit.  Lots of people knew him and he had friends, family and acquaintances.

Points 1 and 2 tell me there is a link between the man in the dock and the tragic killing of Jo Cox.  Not that it proves anything, but it tells me that the man arraigned was the man suspected of the killing. 

Point 3 tells me that Thomas Mair has gone somewhere.  Where has he gone?  On holiday?

You think it's credible, that soon after it's announced that the Leave vote is ahead in the polls, a man responds by killing a prominent Europhile MP, while apparently shouting a really corny phrase, implicating himself as a ignorant bigot?  A local man who adopts a different walk to his own walk, as he goes about ensuring he is captured all over town on various CCTV, avoiding known short cuts that locals would use, then goes to the trouble of changing his clothes while hidden from view, then makes his way to a cul-de-sac to make his escape, where he is accosted by police, who know his name before they accost him?  Not forgetting the carrier bag of shopping he has with when he rugby tackled to the ground?  Perhaps he stopped off at Walter Wilson's for some odds and ends, after committing the brutal attack. 

Do you think Mair reasoned that the attack would increase the Leave vote?