Author Topic: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case  (Read 474 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2020, 12:59:PM »
Where were the keys?  Did the police comment on this?

Bamber would have put the keys back into the doors. Before leaving.
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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2020, 01:03:PM »
Bamber would have put the keys back into the doors. Before leaving.

Right.  But did the raid group officers find the key on the inside of the door?  I think it will be the same door they battered in, but was this noticed or checked?

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2020, 03:26:PM »
Delgado confirms in his statement that there was a key in the inside lock to the back door.  That, then, provides a potential reason for Nevill running for the kitchen.  But Nevill was in pyjamas and barefoot.  What good could he have done running outside in the dark?  Maybe he was running for the den instead (where I think the gun cupboard was, if I'm not mistaken)?  He could have barricaded himself in there.

My further questions:

Why are there blood prints near the phone, and blood on the floor near the phone at the other side of the kitchen, discrete from the blood collected near Nevill?  If Nevill didn't go for the phone, who left that blood there?

If Jeremy replaces the key on the back door, how does he get past Nevill's body to do this?  My understanding is that Nevill's body blocked the interior door between the kitchen and back hallway.  How does Jeremy do this without leaving blood on the floor?

If the gun cupboard was in the downstairs office/den, again, how does Jeremy get past Nevill's body to return the silencer?  And how does Jeremy do this without leaving a trail of blood on the floor and in the gun cupboard?  As far as I know, the only blood is found in the silencer itself.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2020, 03:44:PM »
Delgado confirms in his statement that there was a key in the inside lock to the back door.  That, then, provides a potential reason for Nevill running for the kitchen.  But Nevill was in pyjamas and barefoot.  What good could he have done running outside in the dark?  Maybe he was running for the den instead (where I think the gun cupboard was, if I'm not mistaken)?  He could have barricaded himself in there.

My further questions:

Why are there blood prints near the phone, and blood on the floor near the phone at the other side of the kitchen, discrete from the blood collected near Nevill?  If Nevill didn't go for the phone, who left that blood there?

If Jeremy replaces the key on the back door, how does he get past Nevill's body to do this?  My understanding is that Nevill's body blocked the interior door between the kitchen and back hallway.  How does Jeremy do this without leaving blood on the floor?

If the gun cupboard was in the downstairs office/den, again, how does Jeremy get past Nevill's body to return the silencer?  And how does Jeremy do this without leaving a trail of blood on the floor and in the gun cupboard?  As far as I know, the only blood is found in the silencer itself.

Nevill may have been running to the office den. But didn't make it. The coal shed was also just outside the kitchen door. Again Nevill not making it there.

Nevill's body was not stopping Bamber putting the kitchen door key back.

I do not know where the gun cupboard was in the house. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 03:45:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2020, 07:43:PM »
There is a cupboard in the downstairs hallway. More likely this was the gun cupboard. The office den being used just as an office.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 07:47:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2020, 10:14:PM »
Nevill may have been running to the office den. But didn't make it. The coal shed was also just outside the kitchen door. Again Nevill not making it there.

Nevill's body was not stopping Bamber putting the kitchen door key back.

I do not know where the gun cupboard was in the house.

Actually I may have been misinformed about the position of Nevill's body or misremembered what I had read in the statements.  I had thought that Nevill's body was blocking the inner kitchen door.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2020, 10:30:PM »
There is a cupboard in the downstairs hallway. More likely this was the gun cupboard. The office den being used just as an office.

I've started a separate thread on this.  I believe the gun cupboard was in Nevill's den.  The belief that the cupboard was along the back hallway arises, I think, from Bird's 1991 COLP interview in which I am guessing he mistakes the den door in one of his photographs for a large cupboard door or stair access.

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2020, 10:02:AM »
You start off making a case but within seconds you are blaming it on Jeremy.

"If Nevill goes downstairs, he has an advantage on Jeremy, even if injured.  The stairs are narrow and steep and turn sharply.  Jeremy can’t easily run down these stairs with a gun.

If Nevill reaches the kitchen before Jeremy, then he can reach the phone.

If he can reach the phone, then even if we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take mere seconds for Nevill to replace the receiver, lift the receiver, and dial three digits for the emergency services."

Wouldn't you have to establish Jeremy was there first of all.

You also say it would take just seconds to dial 999.  But that is wrong it was an old fashioned dial telephone 9 = the max rotation of the dial  Couple of seconds per number if I remember correctly.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2020, 11:04:AM »
That is a good point about the phone being a dial phone.

The gun cupboard was in Nevill's office den. Which was at the back of the kitchen.

Nevill may have been running to get a rifle. Bamber may retreat if Nevill points a rifle at him. If not Nevill has the option to shoot.

Or Nevill may have been running to exit through the kitchen door.

Nevill didn't make it to either. Bamber is not going to attack him again on narrow and steep stairs. But he was right behind Nevill. The last thing on Nevill's mind would be to call 999. 
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2020, 11:17:AM »
We've never really had a complete and clear plan of the layout of the house, a full view of the kitchen and its position in relation to the den, neither have we ever seen any photographs of the lounge.

Offline lookout

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2020, 12:43:PM »
You're just being nosy Steve  ;D

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2020, 12:58:PM »
You start off making a case but within seconds you are blaming it on Jeremy.

"If Nevill goes downstairs, he has an advantage on Jeremy, even if injured.  The stairs are narrow and steep and turn sharply.  Jeremy can’t easily run down these stairs with a gun.

If Nevill reaches the kitchen before Jeremy, then he can reach the phone.

If he can reach the phone, then even if we assume Jeremy has opened the line, it would take mere seconds for Nevill to replace the receiver, lift the receiver, and dial three digits for the emergency services."

Wouldn't you have to establish Jeremy was there first of all.

You also say it would take just seconds to dial 999.  But that is wrong it was an old fashioned dial telephone 9 = the max rotation of the dial  Couple of seconds per number if I remember correctly.


You've completely misunderstood the basis of my post.  I was discussing what could happen if Jeremy was the killer, which is surely what we need to do if we want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer.  How else do you propose we discuss it?

Also, while you make a fair point about the phone, you've again slightly missed what I was getting at.

The point is: If there's no blood on the phone, that means he doesn't get to the phone.  In the earlier posts, I was wondering why he didn't get to the phone if he managed to get to the kitchen. 

Maybe it is as you say, that he knew it might take a while to dial, but I'm not sure it would.  In fact, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong.  I can just about remember those old phones, and anyway, even on the basis of what you say, it would not be long: a couple of seconds per number would just be six seconds.  But it would need to be looked into.  And it all has to fit with what happens upstairs.  How much time would he have?  Wouldn't he go for the phone anyway, especially if - as Adam claims - Jeremy had run out of ammunition?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 01:00:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline lookout

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2020, 01:05:PM »
No blood on phone---call made to JB/EP before he was shot. Elementary my dear Watson.

Offline Adam

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2020, 01:17:PM »
You've completely misunderstood the basis of my post.  I was discussing what could happen if Jeremy was the killer, which is surely what we need to do if we want to understand how plausible it is for Jeremy to be the killer.  How else do you propose we discuss it?

Also, while you make a fair point about the phone, you've again slightly missed what I was getting at.

The point is: If there's no blood on the phone, that means he doesn't get to the phone.  In the earlier posts, I was wondering why he didn't get to the phone if he managed to get to the kitchen. 

Maybe it is as you say, that he knew it might take a while to dial, but I'm not sure it would.  In fact, I'm fairly confident that you're wrong.  I can just about remember those old phones, and anyway, even on the basis of what you say, it would not be long: a couple of seconds per number would just be six seconds.  But it would need to be looked into.  And it all has to fit with what happens upstairs.  How much time would he have?  Wouldn't he go for the phone anyway, especially if - as Adam claims - Jeremy had run out of ammunition?

Do you not believe Bamber emptied the rifle in his first visit upstairs?
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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Why Nevill Could Not Have Made A 999 Call: A Logical Case
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 01:22:PM »
Do you not believe Bamber emptied the rifle in his first visit upstairs?

I have already shown you that this is unlikely with reference to the evidence.  See my earlier post about what happened in the twins' bedroom.