Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice

[JackieD]

It is interesting how Julie Mugford is being whitewashed in all this.  The way some people go on, you'd think she was a robot being programmed by Jeremy, with no agency of her own.  Similarly, with Jeremy.  He is portrayed as robot-like too, but in a different way: as a singular killer, cold-blooded and evil, like the malignant android out the James Cameron blockbuster, 'The Terminator', released in the cinemas round about that time.  Perhaps Jeremy saw the film and took inspiration? 

If, instead, we approach them all as complex, multifaceted individuals, the glib simplifications can be put aside. 

Likewise, I think, with Sheila.  Schizophrenia is an extreme psychosis involving delusional thinking that can be distressing to the sufferer and result in violence.  It doesn't completely abdicate criminal responsibility, though.  I know the tendency to absolve Sheila is well-meaning, but Sheila was still an adult and could make her own decisions.  She was under treatment. 

As with Julie, character assessments of Sheila seem to come out of Schrödinger's box territory.  She was well and the treatment was working.  She wasn't well and the treatment wasn't working.  She couldn't put beans on top of toast.  She could do her nails and make-up.  She was a loving mother.  She was violent.  Colin was worried about leaving the twins with her.  Colin left the twins with her.  Colin was worried about the influence of June on the twins.  Colin left the twins with June.  We're told that this treatment for Sheila was successful.  We're told it wasn't. 

Meanwhile, we're assured that Jeremy was perfectly sane and in control of himself, yet he behaved in all these strange ways, they tell us.  That's because he was a psychopath, you see.  Was he?

It seems there are multiple realities here and which applies depends on what suits the argument at that moment.

Any excuses for ms Mugford and her behaviour. There doesn’t appear to be or maybe just born evil ?

[David1819]

Well, if it wasn't the lead detectives from the second investigation, it would have to be the lead detectives of the first investigation. Unless, you are asserting West acted independently? That seems absurd.

Nobody changed, manipulated or covered up anything regarding the emergency calls period.

[guest29835]

Nobody changed, manipulated or covered up anything regarding the emergency calls period.

Actually, that's not quite true.  At least one basic fact was changed about those calls and that's officially part of the Crown's case.

[David1819]

Actually, that's not quite true.  At least one basic fact was changed about those calls and that's officially part of the Crown's case.

West admitting to a mistake on the clock is not altering anything.

[Roch]

Nobody changed, manipulated or covered up anything regarding the emergency calls period.

The altered documents are on this forum. It is widely known in the case, that West rewrote his log.

However, he did not alter the time. He re-wrote the log for another reason.

[guest29835]

West admitting to a mistake on the clock is not altering anything.

It bloody well is!

[Steve_uk]

You idiot, I cannot even bear to read your posts. Sheila was ill, desperately ill and capable of anything. Your weirdness is truly disturbing. God knows who you really are defending the vile Mugford.
Maybe you would like to write chapter and verse on how such a dangerous women was allowed to work with children and were the parents aware of her history.
You need help

Good you could drop by Jackie.

[David1819]

The altered documents are on this forum. It is widely known in the case, that West rewrote his log.

However, he did not alter the time. He re-wrote the log for another reason.

A carbon copy of his log that was updated by his duty manger is not an alteration that’s normal procedures. 😂

[guest29835]

The altered documents are on this forum. It is widely known in the case, that West rewrote his log.

However, he did not alter the time. He re-wrote the log for another reason.

I didn't know that.  I thought the issue was that Bonnett may have taken two calls and merged his record of them together on a single call log, the idea being that a telephone log is just a running record and if you have a single incident in which, coincidentally, the same call operator is involved, then it's an easy to make the mistake of converging the details and perhaps forgetting an earlier call.  Did Bonnett actually receive direct 999 calls?  I've never seen that question resolved.  The other possibility, which I mooted on the other thread, is that Nevill made an abortive call, and due to his injuries, he couldn't speak down the line so it was terminated.

The irony of all this is that the lack of a 999 call could have undermined the prosecution more than the defence.

Regarding the timings, actually in the end West never admitted that he had got it wrong.  It remained in dispute and the judge - supposedly - decided to err on the side of Jeremy Bamber on that point.  However the times in West's two statements are in conflict.  One has it at 3.26 a.m, the other at 3.36 a.m, and in his evidence at trial it's left open.  It's altogether very unsatisfactory.  I simply don't understand how somebody can say that West didn't change his evidence or suggest that it is not of significance. 

[Roch]

A carbon copy of his log that was updated by his duty manger is not an alteration that’s normal procedures. 😂

A carbon copy, with spelling mistakes?  I recall there were six different versions.  Why would a duty manager wish to create six carbon copies, which aren't exact copies?

I didn't know that.  I thought the issue was that Bonnett may have taken two calls and merged his record of them together on a single call log, the idea being that a telephone log is just a running record and if you have a single incident in which, coincidentally, the same call operator is involved, then it's an easy to make the mistake of converging the details and perhaps forgetting an earlier call.  Did Bonnett actually receive direct 999 calls?  I've never seen that question resolved.  The other possibility, which I mooted on the other thread, is that Nevill made an abortive call, and due to his injuries, he couldn't speak down the line so it was terminated.

The irony of all this is that the lack of a 999 call could have undermined the prosecution more than the defence.

Regarding the timings, actually in the end West never admitted that he had got it wrong.  It remained in dispute and the judge - supposedly - decided to err on the side of Jeremy Bamber on that point.  However the times in West's two statements are in conflict.  One has it at 3.26 a.m, the other at 3.36 a.m, and in his evidence at trial it's left open.  It's altogether very unsatisfactory.  I simply don't understand how somebody can say that West didn't change his evidence or suggest that it is not of significance.

The differences between the versions are discussed from page 27 onward, in this document (attached).

[guest29835]

The differences between the versions are discussed from page 27 onward, in this document (attached).

Thanks.

[David1819]

A carbon copy, with spelling mistakes?  I recall there were six different versions.  Why would a duty manager wish to create six carbon copies, which aren't exact copies?

The differences between the versions are discussed from page 27 onward, in this document (attached).

Anyone with half a brain can look at the bottom of these two logs and work out they are copies. It even states where the original copy should go. The original is numbered (255) while the other copy is updated and signed by his duty sergeant.

[Roch]

Anyone with half a brain can look at the bottom of these two logs and work out they are copies. It even states where the original copy should go. The original is numbered (255) while the other copy is updated and signed by his duty sergeant.

Anyone with half a brain can observe the indicated spelling mistakes. How can you have a carbon copy with differences in spelling between the two versions? And what about the other four versions?

[David1819]

Anyone with half a brain can observe the indicated spelling mistakes. How can you have a carbon copy with differences in spelling between the two versions? And what about the other four versions?

Anyone with half a brain can observe that "despatched" and "scene" are spelled the same in both copies.

The other four versions exist only in the imagination of those who made that PDF document. The same people who cant read the measurements of the silencer properly. The same people who claimed there was no paint found on the silencer in August when the August lab documents shows paint was found. The same people who said Sheila rang an ambulance at 6 AM.

[Roch]

Anyone with half a brain can observe that "despatched" and "scene" are spelled the same in both copies.

The other four versions exist only in the imagination of those who made that PDF document. The same people who cant read the measurements of the silencer properly. The same people who claimed there was no paint found on the silencer in August when the August lab documents shows paint was found. The same people who said Sheila rang an ambulance at 6 AM.

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what is detailed from page 27 onward in the document I attached? You can clearly see where 'scene' is spelled incorrectly. Also where 'illness' has been added. Unless I'm mistaken the document states that 'despatched' has been spelled incorrectly in both documents.  And the same people who pointed out the diagram which shows the same blood group as PB/DB in the sound moderator. You are prepared to accept where it shows the same blood group as SC/RB, as per the Crown's case, but can't bring your self to give parity to the other blood grouping. I've never been a fan of the 6am 999 call.