Author Topic: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice  (Read 1172 times)

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Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 11:13:AM »
You and David are almost opposites. He is a poster who believes Jeremy is innocent - but his reasoning and posts often seem more supportive to the crown than the defence. You are a poster who suspects Jeremy may be culpable -  but your reasoning and posts seem more supportive to the defence than the crown.

Jeremy denies everything, which is his privilege, and we can't see inside his head or reach into a metaphorical ether and pull out the truth.  Thus, the Crown's case must be tested.  If it fails under the stress-test, then the convictions must fall and, I assume now, the probable perpetrator walks free rather than facing a re-trial. 

Unless somebody has a better proposal for how the system should work, that's how it works.  I have one or two suggestions for improvements to how the system deals with cases like this one, but I'm not one of the cognoscenti.

Of course, if Jeremy had the bottle to admit what he's done, then it would all be different.  The issue then would be the fairness of the whole life order.

Offline David1819

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 01:47:PM »
West (probably under duress from DS Jones / DCS Ainsley) forged different versions of his call log, without altering the time of the call.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:44:PM by David1819 »

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 07:54:PM »
I have outlined the time-and-motion flaw with Sheila in the Crown's case on a different thread.  If the Crown cannot establish that Sheila was under sedation, then I think the flaw could be fatal for the prosecution.

The issue with Nevill is of a similar kind, and while not as serious for the prosecution, it raises questions.

The relevant points are:

(i). The Crown deny that there was any 999 call from Nevill.

(ii). The main stairway is steep and narrow.

(iii). Two spots of blood were found between the main landing and the kitchen, respectively on the wall of the mainstairway and on the jamb between the foyer and the kitchen.

(iv). There was no blood on the kitchen door.

(v). There was no blood on the kitchen phone.

(vi). There was a struggle in the kitchen between Nevill and the killer.

(vii). Nevill was shot upstairs, roughly four times according to the Crown, and then four more times in the kitchen.

(viii). Nevill moved himself from upstairs to the kitchen - according to the Crown.

I find it difficult to reconcile all this with Jeremy being the killer, simply because in those circumstances:

(a). Jeremy would have already fired at June upstairs and left her seriously injured.

(b). Nevill must have been running for the kitchen phone.  Why else would he run for the kitchen rather than stay upstairs and try to save Sheila and June?

(c). Nevill was already gravely injured, according to the Crown, yet he is able to move from one part of the house to another with the killer in pursuit.

Was there something else, other than the phone, in the kitchen itself or something in a different part of the house that required him to go via the kitchen?

If Nevill is running for the kitchen phone, then this does not have to be a completely rational decision.  Nevill, we assume, is injured in the face/jaw, but it doesn't follow that he would not try to dial 999.

If there is no blood on the kitchen door, this suggests that the kitchen door was already open and Nevill does not try to block his attacker by shutting the door behind him.

If there is no blood on the kitchen phone, then this means Nevill never reached the phone. 

Yet Nevill has left behind his wife and daughter, and is injured, because he wants to reach the phone.

There are blood prints on the worktop near the phone.

It seems to me there are two main possibilities:

1. Jeremy was the killer and caught up with Nevill just as he reached the worktop.  They then struggle (or whatever happened next). 

2. Sheila was the killer and the kitchen struggle occurred at the beginning of the incident.  Nevill is already injured and goes for the phone again but Sheila stops him.

I have to say that 2 does seem to me more credible.  If Sheila was the attacker, Nevill would have been quite hesitant about what he was doing, especially if it was early in the incident and he had already spoken to Jeremy.

The problem with 1 is that, if you look at the position of the prints and also consider the narrowness and steepness of the hallway stairs, Nevill had the advantage and would surely have reached the phone in any event.  If Jeremy had already opened the line, all Nevill had to do was replace the receiver, take it off again, and dial three digits - which takes seconds.  Thus, not to touch the phone must have been a choice - it's much more likely he makes that choice for Sheila rather than Jeremy.

There are two ways the Crown could overcome this:

Solution 1: Nevill reached the phone but the abortive/broken 999 call was not recorded at that time; furthermore, even if the line had remained open at the caller's end, it would have been terminated by the operator after a short period of time, and no further investigation would have occurred.  Jeremy took it on himself to wipe the phone clean of blood, thinking that blood on the phone would be inconsistent with the staged call from Nevill. 

Solution 2: Nevill reached the phone but Jeremy stopped him just as he was re-dialling.  A police officer used the kitchen phone on the morning of the 7th., wiping it clean of blood, and this has never been recorded or admitted, perhaps because only one officer was aware of it having happened and he didn't realise the significance of what he was doing at the time.

Solution 1 can only be confirmed by somebody with knowledge of how emergency calls worked at that time, but in any event, this gives me another thought about a possible kernel for Jeremy's idea of staging a call from Nevill.

One theory I have is that he got the idea due to a genuine call from Nevill that I hypothesise was made the previous evening and that may have catalysed his rage, but there is an alternative possibility.

It's possible that Jeremy got the idea for staging a call after terminating Nevill's abortive 999 call.  This may have occurred to him due to the fear (whether justified or not) that the police could and would trace back Nevill's unsuccessful call and so he decided there and then that he would have to stage a call from Nevill to himself, thinking (rightly or wrongly) that this would somehow cover him.  He then realises also that a call to Julie may help him, so he rings her at about the same time that he rings the police.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 08:01:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Roch

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 08:52:PM »
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Well, if it wasn't the lead detectives from the second investigation, it would have to be the lead detectives of the first investigation. Unless, you are asserting West acted independently? That seems absurd.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 08:53:PM by Roch »

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2020, 09:05:PM »
I have outlined the time-and-motion flaw with Sheila in the Crown's case on a different thread. If the Crown cannot establish that Sheila was under sedation, then I think the flaw could be fatal for the prosecution.

The issue with Nevill is of a similar kind, and while not as serious for the prosecution, it raises questions.

The relevant points are:

(i). The Crown deny that there was any 999 call from Nevill.

(ii). The main stairway is steep and narrow.

(iii). Two spots of blood were found between the main landing and the kitchen, respectively on the wall of the mainstairway and on the jamb between the foyer and the kitchen.

(iv). There was no blood on the kitchen door.

(v). There was no blood on the kitchen phone.

(vi). There was a struggle in the kitchen between Nevill and the killer.

(vii). Nevill was shot upstairs, roughly four times according to the Crown, and then four more times in the kitchen.

(viii). Nevill moved himself from upstairs to the kitchen - according to the Crown.

I find it difficult to reconcile all this with Jeremy being the killer, simply because in those circumstances:

(a). Jeremy would have already fired at June upstairs and left her seriously injured.

(b). Nevill must have been running for the kitchen phone.  Why else would he run for the kitchen rather than stay upstairs and try to save Sheila and June?

(c). Nevill was already gravely injured, according to the Crown, yet he is able to move from one part of the house to another with the killer in pursuit.

Was there something else, other than the phone, in the kitchen itself or something in a different part of the house that required him to go via the kitchen?

If Nevill is running for the kitchen phone, then this does not have to be a completely rational decision.  Nevill, we assume, is injured in the face/jaw, but it doesn't follow that he would not try to dial 999.

If there is no blood on the kitchen door, this suggests that the kitchen door was already open and Nevill does not try to block his attacker by shutting the door behind him.

If there is no blood on the kitchen phone, then this means Nevill never reached the phone.

Yet Nevill has left behind his wife and daughter, and is injured, because he wants to reach the phone.

There are blood prints on the worktop near the phone.

It seems to me there are two main possibilities:

1. Jeremy was the killer and caught up with Nevill just as he reached the worktop.  They then struggle (or whatever happened next). 

2. Sheila was the killer and the kitchen struggle occurred at the beginning of the incident.  Nevill is already injured and goes for the phone again but Sheila stops him.

I have to say that 2 does seem to me more credible.  If Sheila was the attacker, Nevill would have been quite hesitant about what he was doing, especially if it was early in the incident and he had already spoken to Jeremy.

The problem with 1 is that, if you look at the position of the prints and also consider the narrowness and steepness of the hallway stairs, Nevill had the advantage and would surely have reached the phone in any event.  If Jeremy had already opened the line, all Nevill had to do was replace the receiver, take it off again, and dial three digits - which takes seconds.  Thus, not to touch the phone must have been a choice - it's much more likely he makes that choice for Sheila rather than Jeremy.

There are two ways the Crown could overcome this:

Solution 1: Nevill reached the phone but the abortive/broken 999 call was not recorded at that time; furthermore, even if the line had remained open at the caller's end, it would have been terminated by the operator after a short period of time, and no further investigation would have occurred.  Jeremy took it on himself to wipe the phone clean of blood, thinking that blood on the phone would be inconsistent with the staged call from Nevill. 

Solution 2: Nevill reached the phone but Jeremy stopped him just as he was re-dialling.  A police officer used the kitchen phone on the morning of the 7th., wiping it clean of blood, and this has never been recorded or admitted, perhaps because only one officer was aware of it having happened and he didn't realise the significance of what he was doing at the time.

Solution 1 can only be confirmed by somebody with knowledge of how emergency calls worked at that time, but in any event, this gives me another thought about a possible kernel for Jeremy's idea of staging a call from Nevill.

One theory I have is that he got the idea due to a genuine call from Nevill that I hypothesise was made the previous evening and that may have catalysed his rage, but there is an alternative possibility.

It's possible that Jeremy got the idea for staging a call after terminating Nevill's abortive 999 call.  This may have occurred to him due to the fear (whether justified or not) that the police could and would trace back Nevill's unsuccessful call and so he decided there and then that he would have to stage a call from Nevill to himself, thinking (rightly or wrongly) that this would somehow cover him.  He then realises also that a call to Julie may help him, so he rings her at about the same time that he rings the police.
1. Let's get one thing straight: Sheila was not on trial.

2. a b c are correct. I suppose Nevill could be looking for a kitchen knife. Mike has previously claimed that Nevill always slept with a rifle under the bed.

3. The state of Sheila's face suggests she had not been involved in exertion. This has been discussed many times before here.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 09:06:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2020, 09:08:PM »

3. The state of Sheila's face suggests she had not been involved in exertion. This has been discussed many times before here.

She did not exert herself while Jeremy was murdering her parents and twin sons?  What was she doing, given that we can't prove she was sedated? 

Was she just fast asleep?

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2020, 09:12:PM »
She did not exert herself while Jeremy was murdering her parents and twin sons?  What was she doing, given that we can't prove she was sedated? 

Was she just fast asleep?
Everything points to that, yes.

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2020, 09:19:PM »
Everything points to that, yes.

It is possible, but it doesn't seem very plausible - especially given the close proximity of the three bedrooms.  You are basically telling us that she slept through most of the mayhem, perhaps awakening drowsily but not reacting quick enough to stop Jeremy manhandling her into the master bedroom. 

Let's say this is it. 

Wouldn't she struggle with Jeremy and try to run?

How come Jeremy leaves no blood trail in the second bedroom and in the master bedroom?

How come Sheila has no blood on her feet?

If you have Sheila going to the master bedroom of her own accord, again how does she not get blood on her feet?  How does she not get June's blood all over her?  Why doesn't she check on the twins and leave blood in the twins' bedroom?

If you have Jeremy carrying her to the master bedroom, how does Jeremy incapacitate her to do this?  And why doesn't she struggle with Jeremy, given that he won't be holding the rifle?  Or do you think she slept through that too?

That being said, you're the Bachelor of Education, Mrs Smerchanski - with Honours too - so I assume you'll come up with a coherent explanation for all this. 

Perhaps murdering people is something you have experience in?  Maybe insider knowledge, even?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 09:20:PM by QCChevalier »

Online Steve_uk

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2020, 10:09:PM »
It is possible, but it doesn't seem very plausible - especially given the close proximity of the three bedrooms.  You are basically telling us that she slept through most of the mayhem, perhaps awakening drowsily but not reacting quick enough to stop Jeremy manhandling her into the master bedroom. 

Let's say this is it. 

Wouldn't she struggle with Jeremy and try to run?

How come Jeremy leaves no blood trail in the second bedroom and in the master bedroom?

How come Sheila has no blood on her feet?

If you have Sheila going to the master bedroom of her own accord, again how does she not get blood on her feet?  How does she not get June's blood all over her?  Why doesn't she check on the twins and leave blood in the twins' bedroom?

If you have Jeremy carrying her to the master bedroom, how does Jeremy incapacitate her to do this?  And why doesn't she struggle with Jeremy, given that he won't be holding the rifle?  Or do you think she slept through that too?

That being said, you're the Bachelor of Education, Mrs Smerchanski - with Honours too - so I assume you'll come up with a coherent explanation for all this. 

Perhaps murdering people is something you have experience in?  Maybe insider knowledge, even?
I'm actually a PGCE, but I digress. Sheila just didn't know what was happening to her, it all occurring in a matter of seconds. She was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, and had no awareness of the situation which awaited her in the master bedroom. As for the twins, the whole history of her being in sole charge of them in London was one of neglect, certainly not intentionally, but because she simply didn't have the energy to manage them on a daily basis. She could just about muster a weekend visit to Paddington Recreation Ground, where they sailed high on the swings: otherwise she often couldn't get them ready for school in time, Nicholas had a scald which Sheila either didn't notice or was slow to acknowledge and take him to the doctor's, he also fell out of a London taxi following a row between her and June at White House Farm and Sheila was in a state rushing back home.

Don't you see a pattern emerging here? As for Jeremy, he probably wore a coat, gloves and mask and kept all five at bay with the element of surprise. High on some narcotic cocktail he wouldn't recall much of the events 30 years later, hence his success in fooling the lie detector, like the Green River killer.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 10:11:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2020, 10:28:PM »

Don't you see a pattern emerging here? As for Jeremy, he probably wore a coat, gloves and mask and kept all five at bay with the element of surprise. High on some narcotic cocktail he wouldn't recall much of the events 30 years later, hence his success in fooling the lie detector, like the Green River killer.

I'm not sure about your claim that it was all over in a matter of seconds, simply because the context to the situation is that you have her asleep.

In all seriousness Steve, I'm just trying to be logical about it. 

However, your comment above about Jeremy's memory and sense of responsibility being affected by drugs is, in all seriousness, excellent.  I have been thinking along the same lines and this whole issue of how drugs affected Jeremy's reasoning and intellect interests me greatly, and I really hadn't thought of that point you have just made.  Genuinely, thank you.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 10:29:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline JackieD

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2020, 10:29:PM »
I'm actually a PGCE, but I digress. Sheila just didn't know what was happening to her, it all occurring in a matter of seconds. She was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter, and had no awareness of the situation which awaited her in the master bedroom. As for the twins, the whole history of her being in sole charge of them in London was one of neglect, certainly not intentionally, but because she simply didn't have the energy to manage them on a daily basis. She could just about muster a weekend visit to Paddington Recreation Ground, where they sailed high on the swings: otherwise she often couldn't get them ready for school in time, Nicholas had a scald which Sheila either didn't notice or was slow to acknowledge and take him to the doctor's, he also fell out of a London taxi following a row between her and June at White House Farm and Sheila was in a state rushing back home.

Don't you see a pattern emerging here? As for Jeremy, he probably wore a coat, gloves and mask and kept all five at bay with the element of surprise. High on some narcotic cocktail he wouldn't recall much of the events 30 years later, hence his success in fooling the lie detector, like the Green River killer.

You idiot, I cannot even bear to read your posts. Sheila was ill, desperately ill and capable of anything. Your weirdness is truly disturbing. God knows who you really are defending the vile Mugford.
Maybe you would like to write chapter and verse on how such a dangerous women was allowed to work with children and were the parents aware of her history.
You need help
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline Roch

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2020, 11:43:PM »
I've personally never had an issue with Steve, even though I've always had an awareness of his immovable stance on the case, in the face of all posts or claims to the contrary.  He is certainly obdurate.  I think I just wrote it off in my mind as being a given, no matter what.

Hey Steve, you're taking a bit of a battering at the moment  :))  Never mind eh, I'm sure you'll survive. An old timer on here, like me.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2020, 12:19:PM »
I've personally never had an issue with Steve, even though I've always had an awareness of his immovable stance on the case, in the face of all posts or claims to the contrary.  He is certainly obdurate.  I think I just wrote it off in my mind as being a given, no matter what.

Hey Steve, you're taking a bit of a battering at the moment  :))  Never mind eh, I'm sure you'll survive. An old timer on here, like me.

Let’s remember Sheila on all this. How dare he talk about someone who had critical mental health issues. Unforgivable
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline JackieD

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2020, 12:33:PM »
I've personally never had an issue with Steve, even though I've always had an awareness of his immovable stance on the case, in the face of all posts or claims to the contrary.  He is certainly obdurate.  I think I just wrote it off in my mind as being a given, no matter what.

Hey Steve, you're taking a bit of a battering at the moment  :))  Never mind eh, I'm sure you'll survive. An old timer on here, like me.
[/qu

Let’s remember Sheila was not responsible for her actions and I am sure it was discussed after the murders whether she had ever been well enough to
leave hospital

On the other hand Julie Mugford knew exactly what she was doing whether Jeremy was innocent or guilty and when an honest factual series is finally made about the Whitehouse Farm Murders is made Julie Mugford will be famous for all the worst reasons.
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline QCChevalier

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Re: Nevill's Voice, Jeremy's Voice
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2020, 02:09:PM »
Let’s remember Sheila was not responsible for her actions and I am sure it was discussed after the murders whether she had ever been well enough to
leave hospital

On the other hand Julie Mugford knew exactly what she was doing whether Jeremy was innocent or guilty and when an honest factual series is finally made about the Whitehouse Farm Murders is made Julie Mugford will be famous for all the worst reasons.

It is interesting how Julie Mugford is being whitewashed in all this.  The way some people go on, you'd think she was a robot being programmed by Jeremy, with no agency of her own.  Similarly, with Jeremy.  He is portrayed as robot-like too, but in a different way: as a singular killer, cold-blooded and evil, like the malignant android out the James Cameron blockbuster, 'The Terminator', released in the cinemas round about that time.  Perhaps Jeremy saw the film and took inspiration? 

If, instead, we approach them all as complex, multifaceted individuals, the glib simplifications can be put aside. 

Likewise, I think, with Sheila.  Schizophrenia is an extreme psychosis involving delusional thinking that can be distressing to the sufferer and result in violence.  It doesn't completely abdicate criminal responsibility, though.  I know the tendency to absolve Sheila is well-meaning, but Sheila was still an adult and could make her own decisions.  She was under treatment. 

As with Julie, character assessments of Sheila seem to come out of Schrödinger's box territory.  She was well and the treatment was working.  She wasn't well and the treatment wasn't working.  She couldn't put beans on top of toast.  She could do her nails and make-up.  She was a loving mother.  She was violent.  Colin was worried about leaving the twins with her.  Colin left the twins with her.  Colin was worried about the influence of June on the twins.  Colin left the twins with June.  We're told that this treatment for Sheila was successful.  We're told it wasn't. 

Meanwhile, we're assured that Jeremy was perfectly sane and in control of himself, yet he behaved in all these strange ways, they tell us.  That's because he was a psychopath, you see.  Was he?

It seems there are multiple realities here and which applies depends on what suits the argument at that moment.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 02:10:PM by QCChevalier »