Author Topic: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?  (Read 650 times)

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Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2020, 08:01:PM »
4. The question here to my mind is: why telephone Julie at all at this stage? Only the cynics in my view would argue this was a pre-arranged signal to inform her that their joint enterprise had succeeded. It was evidently going to arouse suspicion at a later date anyway, so why have Douglas Dale and others as witnesses?

So that they could make it look like a spontaneous call.  Yet she then changes her statement and claims that in fact she answered the phone herself.

Offline Adam

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2020, 01:58:PM »
(i). The drug offences.
(ii). The caravan park break-in.
(iii). The frauds.

In regard to (i), she was cautioned.

In regard to (ii), the charges were withdrawn.

In regard to (iii), no further action was taken.

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That sounds about right - 

She wasn't smuggling a suitcase of heroin to Thailand.

She told the police about the caravan break in.

She paid back her part of the cheque book fraud back.


Assume it was Bamber who told the police about the cheque book fraud and drugs. After she had approached the police.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:59:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2020, 02:15:PM »
(i). The drug offences.
(ii). The caravan park break-in.
(iii). The frauds.

In regard to (i), she was cautioned.

In regard to (ii), the charges were withdrawn.

In regard to (iii), no further action was taken.

----------

That sounds about right - 

She wasn't smuggling a suitcase of heroin to Thailand.

She told the police about the caravan break in.

She paid back her part of the cheque book fraud back.


Assume it was Bamber who told the police about the cheque book fraud and drugs. After she had approached the police.

The judge misled the jury and told them she had been cautioned for the cheque offences when she had not.

Thanks Adam.

Offline Adam

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2020, 02:28:PM »
The judge misled the jury and told them she had been cautioned for the cheque offences when she had not.

Thanks Adam.

Can you provide a source.

Anyway. So what?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:30:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2020, 03:00:PM »
Can you provide a source.

Anyway. So what?

Source is at the beginning of this thread.

The 'so what?' is that by telling the jury she had been cautioned, the judge may have added the impression that she came forward out of a sense of conscience.

Online ngb1066

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2020, 03:32:PM »
Source is at the beginning of this thread.

The 'so what?' is that by telling the jury she had been cautioned, the judge may have added the impression that she came forward out of a sense of conscience.

In addition a police caution includes an admission of guilt and it gives a person cautioned a criminal record.  That could have had serious consequences for JM in relation to her teaching prospects and her ability to emigrate to Canada.  She was in fact let off scot free from several serious criminal offences, leaving aside the possibility of prosecution for perverting the course of justice or assisting an offender.  Coupled with the lies about the NOW deal the jury were seriously misled and had they known the truth it is likely that they would have viewed her evidence at trial with far greater circumspection.

 

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2020, 03:48:PM »
In addition a police caution includes an admission of guilt and it gives a person cautioned a criminal record.  That could have had serious consequences for JM in relation to her teaching prospects and her ability to emigrate to Canada.  She was in fact let off scot free from several serious criminal offences, leaving aside the possibility of prosecution for perverting the course of justice or assisting an offender.  Coupled with the lies about the NOW deal the jury were seriously misled and had they known the truth it is likely that they would have viewed her evidence at trial with far greater circumspection.

Yes, and if I may add a further point that occurs to me on reading your post. This is something I think you are already implying, but it needs to be spelled out.

If I was of a cynical frame of mind, I might well conclude the following:

(i). To borrow from criminal parlance, the caution for drug offences could be regarded as the prosecution's 'convincer' in anticipation of the jury's concerns that this was just a 'dirty deal'.

(ii). The police and the DPP may have decided to caution here for the drug offences rather than the dishonesty offences so as to play down the dishonesty aspect of the criminal history of a key prosecution witness whose evidence contains no corroborating facts whatsoever and thus whose entire contribution to the case against Jeremy rests on her own say-so.

(iii). The police and the DPP may have issued the caution and other disposals listed above at or just before the point when questions were being asked about this witness at the trial.

Incidentally, regarding her admission to Canada, the caution will not have affected her much.  It has long been settled law in Canada that, at least as far as UK citizens are concerned, Canadian immigration law aligns with the UK's 1974 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.  This means that, although she would still have had to declare the drug caution, is it quite likely the Canadian authorities simply disregarded it, and would have done the same for any other disposals and incidents such as arrests. 

The name of the relevant Canadian case escapes me for the moment, but even if it was not current at the time of Jeremy's trial, I suspect Julie Mugford's treatment by Canadian immigration would have been something like what I have just outlined, especially given that her entry to Canada was against the background of marrying a Canadian citizen.  In other words, I doubt there was some sort of 'back stairs' arrangement between the authorities of two friendly countries to re-settle this obscure person.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 03:51:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Adam

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2020, 03:55:PM »
Source is at the beginning of this thread.

The 'so what?' is that by telling the jury she had been cautioned, the judge may have added the impression that she came forward out of a sense of conscience.

'She received a police caution'.

Where does it say she did not receive a police caution?

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2020, 03:57:PM »
'She received a police caution'.

Where does it say she did not receive a police caution?

Read it again in context.

Offline Adam

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2020, 04:04:PM »
'she volunteered her past offences to the bank who had lost the money when she went to them about a month after she had made her statement to the police in this case, and volunteered to them that if they look back they would find frauds for which she was responsible. She told you that she went there voluntarily and re-paid the money that had obtained, and it seems, does it not, that without her voluntary revelation of her own part in those offences, she would never have been caught for them. They would have never come to light'

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Thought it was Bamber that told his lawyers about the cheque book fraud.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2020, 05:05:PM »
'she volunteered her past offences to the bank who had lost the money when she went to them about a month after she had made her statement to the police in this case, and volunteered to them that if they look back they would find frauds for which she was responsible. She told you that she went there voluntarily and re-paid the money that had obtained, and it seems, does it not, that without her voluntary revelation of her own part in those offences, she would never have been caught for them. They would have never come to light'

----------

Thought it was Bamber that told his lawyers about the cheque book fraud.

No idea, but again, I am not sure if the judge is being completely straight with the jury there.

Online ngb1066

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2020, 05:38:PM »
Yes, and if I may add a further point that occurs to me on reading your post. This is something I think you are already implying, but it needs to be spelled out.

If I was of a cynical frame of mind, I might well conclude the following:

(i). To borrow from criminal parlance, the caution for drug offences could be regarded as the prosecution's 'convincer' in anticipation of the jury's concerns that this was just a 'dirty deal'.

(ii). The police and the DPP may have decided to caution here for the drug offences rather than the dishonesty offences so as to play down the dishonesty aspect of the criminal history of a key prosecution witness whose evidence contains no corroborating facts whatsoever and thus whose entire contribution to the case against Jeremy rests on her own say-so.

(iii). The police and the DPP may have issued the caution and other disposals listed above at or just before the point when questions were being asked about this witness at the trial.

Incidentally, regarding her admission to Canada, the caution will not have affected her much.  It has long been settled law in Canada that, at least as far as UK citizens are concerned, Canadian immigration law aligns with the UK's 1974 Rehabilitation of Offenders Act.  This means that, although she would still have had to declare the drug caution, is it quite likely the Canadian authorities simply disregarded it, and would have done the same for any other disposals and incidents such as arrests. 

The name of the relevant Canadian case escapes me for the moment, but even if it was not current at the time of Jeremy's trial, I suspect Julie Mugford's treatment by Canadian immigration would have been something like what I have just outlined, especially given that her entry to Canada was against the background of marrying a Canadian citizen.  In other words, I doubt there was some sort of 'back stairs' arrangement between the authorities of two friendly countries to re-settle this obscure person.

I agree with what you say, but in fact she was not even cautioned for the drug offences.  She escaped without any criminal conviction and with a £25,000 bonus.  There are many documents relating to the police handling of JM and her mother, including numerous interviews and internal memoranda, which have been withheld under PII.  The CCRC have consistently refused to order disclosure of these documents.  I believe they are likely to contain significant material, casting light on the circumstances of her "coming forward" and confirming that was was under arrest and detained for a period, with considerable pressure placed upon her.

Although it did not happen, a caution just for the drugs offences, including supply and importation, would have had to be disclosed and would have been very damaging to her career prospects.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2020, 05:55:PM »
I agree with what you say, but in fact she was not even cautioned for the drug offences.  She escaped without any criminal conviction and with a £25,000 bonus.  There are many documents relating to the police handling of JM and her mother, including numerous interviews and internal memoranda, which have been withheld under PII.  The CCRC have consistently refused to order disclosure of these documents.  I believe they are likely to contain significant material, casting light on the circumstances of her "coming forward" and confirming that was was under arrest and detained for a period, with considerable pressure placed upon her.

Right, thanks.  Are we saying, then, that the COLP inquiry was misled by the CPS (or whatever variation on that theme)?  I suppose what you say is not necessarily inconsistent with what I have supposed above.  I do strongly suspect the caution referred to by the judge was instantiated by Essex Police and the DPP at that moment, and if so, this would explain why the judge, and the jury in turn, were misled.  It would be still more serious if it turns out that the caution was fictitious.

Although it did not happen, a caution just for the drugs offences, including supply and importation, would have had to be disclosed and would have been very damaging to her career prospects.

Oh definitely, and I think if it happened now, she would be barred from teaching in the UK - at least for some years, if not indefinitely.  But back then, things were a bit more lenient than they are now.  The significance of the point being that I'm minded to the view that her move to Canada was organic rather than contrived.  I am not aware of any past links she may have had to Canada, though interestingly I do recall that a pro-Bamber blogger some years ago alleged that she had been caught importing drugs, coincidentally from Canada - which may suggest that she in fact did have some link above and beyond her husband-to-be.  You yourself now say she was caught at importation.  I didn't know that.  I thought her drugs offences were minor - perhaps an erroneous assumption on my part.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:55:PM by QCChevalier »

Online lookout

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Re: Did Julie Mugford Receive A Police Caution?
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2020, 06:48:PM »
'she volunteered her past offences to the bank who had lost the money when she went to them about a month after she had made her statement to the police in this case, and volunteered to them that if they look back they would find frauds for which she was responsible. She told you that she went there voluntarily and re-paid the money that had obtained, and it seems, does it not, that without her voluntary revelation of her own part in those offences, she would never have been caught for them. They would have never come to light'

----------

Thought it was Bamber that told his lawyers about the cheque book fraud.






Jeremy was the only one out of the lot of them that didn't use the " he said, she said " card. He was caught unawares with this crime for which he had nothing to do with, hence  there was nothing he'd PLANNED to say about anyone.