Author Topic: Brief Thoughts On The Case  (Read 722 times)

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Online QCChevalier

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Brief Thoughts On The Case
« on: July 03, 2020, 02:50:PM »
I lean towards 'Guilty', based on a mix of reason, suspicion and intuition, but I'm struggling.

One thing that puzzles me is how he did it.  Honestly, I just can’t figure it out and I’m not sure that if I was on a jury hearing this evidence I could even convict him.  It’s not enough to say ‘Sheila didn’t do it, ergo Jeremy did’.  That’s not proof.  There can still be doubt.

The questions about the scenario are numerous. 

How does he move Sheila into the master bedroom without leaving any forensic trace in the second bedroom or the landing?

If Sheila was already in the master bedroom, how come she isn’t covered in June’s blood?  How come she wasn’t accidentally shot by Jeremy in the arm or torso or between the eyes?  Assuming Sheila somehow dodges that bullet while Jeremy is firing at June, what does Sheila do while Jeremy is downstairs struggling with Nevill?  Does she just sit and wait for Jeremy?  Does she help June and get covered in June’s blood, or does she go to the twins and discover them dead and fight Jeremy?  Or does she find the twins still alive and runs and hides with them somewhere?

And if she ran to June or went and hid with the twins, how come she is so clean?

Ironically, isn’t the fact she is clean actually a possible indicator of suicide, per Professor Knight’s evidence?
 
Don’t misunderstand me: I think he did it, but I’m trying to get my head round it.

It just doesn’t make sense.

One possible answer is that she was heavily sedated, but if she was sedated to that extent, then how does Jeremy coerce her to the master bedroom?  And wouldn’t Jeremy be wary of such a plan, knowing that other people – including Sheila’s own doctors – would know she was sedated and (as some claim) lacking in motor skills?
 
But was she sedated, really?  And what exactly does ‘sedated’ mean?  I always think it’s a bit glib to rely on pseudo-terminology like that.  We need to know what it means precisely.

I’m curious to know what Dr Vanezis thought about all this, as I view him as quite competent.  Which is why I’ve asked for the missing page in Dr. Vanezis’ trial transcript because Jeremy’s lawyers are asking him to comment on Sheila’s medication and he says words to the effect: ‘OK, I’ll give the court an opinion, but I’m not a specialist in that area of medicine so take this with a pinch of salt’.  Unfortunately, the next bit is missing. 

Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 02:51:PM by QCChevalier »

Online lookout

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2020, 03:10:PM »
There was nothing found in Sheila's blood test which indicated any other sedation apart from what remained of her 3 week old injection of Haloperidol and a trace of cannabis. Neither were the rest of the family sedated in any way.
Not forgetting that her monthly injection had been halved anyway and wouldn't have had the same desired effect as would her full original measure and therefore would have left her with similar symptoms of psychosis of which she'd first been admitted with when her father drove her to the clinic in March.

Sheila had also omitted taking other medications one of which was to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol along with an anti-depressant. A decrease in medication can have the same symptoms as not having taken anything and given the type of mental illness that Sheila had would have rendered her to a ticking time bomb.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2020, 03:25:PM »
There was nothing found in Sheila's blood test which indicated any other sedation apart from what remained of her 3 week old injection of Haloperidol and a trace of cannabis. Neither were the rest of the family sedated in any way.
Not forgetting that her monthly injection had been halved anyway and wouldn't have had the same desired effect as would her full original measure and therefore would have left her with similar symptoms of psychosis of which she'd first been admitted with when her father drove her to the clinic in March.

Sheila had also omitted taking other medications one of which was to counteract the side-effects of the Haldol along with an anti-depressant. A decrease in medication can have the same symptoms as not having taken anything and given the type of mental illness that Sheila had would have rendered her to a ticking time bomb.

Thanks.  You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue.  If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.

To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself.  It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals.  I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 03:26:PM by QCChevalier »

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2020, 03:41:PM »
How Bamber committed the massacre. To match the evidence.

Cycle to WHF:

Evidence - June's bike brought over to Bamber's cottage just before massacre.  Easy journey. Unseen.


Get into WHF


Evidence - Bathroom window loose or open. Quiet ground floor entrance. Bamber said he knew how to get in through this window.


Pick up rifle:


Evidence ' Rifle available as stated by Bamber.


Fire one bullet into each twin.


Evidence - Julie said the twins were shot first.


Enter main bedroom:


Evidence - Two adults in this room who must be killed with remaining 9 bullets as potential to provide most resistance.


Shoot an in bed June and Neville
:

Evidence - 9 shots were fired in the main bedroom opening salvo suggesting rifle was emptied in opening salvo.   June and Neville shot in or near the bed.


Go to reload or chase Neville:


Evidence - Spare bullets found in kitchen. Neville found in kitchen.


Kitchen fight:

Evidence - Neville was brutally beaten there.  Upturned and smashed kitchen items. Scratch marks on aga.


Shoot and kill a knocked out Neville
:

Evidence - Four kitchen head shots into Neville.


Reload. Return upstairs
:

Evidence - All other shots upstairs.


Either wake and shoot or shoot an already awake Sheila:

Evidence - Sheila found shot in the corner of main bedroom. Sheila on Haloperidol so easy to control.


Shoot June twice more:


Evidence - June had moved a few feet. Final shots required. Two of June's 7 shots would have killed her quickly.


Reload, shoot the sleeping twins more times


Evidence - Twins shot 8 times in bed. Amount of bullets used shows two reloads carried out on the night.


Stage the scene
:

Evidence - Gun and bible by Sheila. Silencer put in a box. Neville mounted onto a coal scuttle and back burnt to check for signs of life.


Exit out of kitchen window
:

Evidence - Twenty sources say it can be banged shut from outside. Housekeeper said items moved by kitchen window.on night of massacre.


Cycle home:

Evidence - Bike found at Bambers cottage
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 03:44:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2020, 03:54:PM »
There was a box room in between the main bedroom and the twins bedroom. So no possibility of Nevill or June hearing two shots into the twins with the silencer attached.

The rifle held 11 bullets. Bamber would go upstairs fully loaded - 11 bullets.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2020, 04:04:PM »
Bamber may have been going for an 11 shot massacre -

Daniel - 1
Nicholas - 1
June - 5
Nevill 3
Sheila 1

-------------

The 5 random shots into June would highlight an out of control Sheila.

He would have wanted 3 head shots into Nevill. He managed 2 as Nevill started moving. Bamber stepped back & fired 2 shots into Nevill in a panic. Emptying the rifle.  The second 2 shots hit Nevill's torso rather than head.

Once he had to reload once, he might as well go crazy.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 04:06:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 04:13:PM »
Thanks.  You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue.  If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.

To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself.  It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals.  I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.






There's plenty of reasonable doubt to my mind over lots of things and this subject of sedation is only a drop in the ocean in comparison as are many pretty weak in their suggestions of how the crime was committed by Jeremy.

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 04:24:PM »
@Adam

For now, my interest is in the plausibility of Sheila as a basis for overcoming the convictions separate to attacking the silencer evidence.

The major points against Sheila as the killer seem to be [I don't pretend this is exhaustive and ignore certain evidence like the Bible as I think the police messed around with the crime scene]:

1. Sheila had no meaningful experience with guns.

2. Sheila was not normally violent against people.

3. Sheila was uncoordinated or her motor skills were impaired or she was drowsy or totally sedated, or some variation on this theme, hence it's unlikely she did it.

4. A suicide shot would normally be intra-oral, but her two gunshot wounds are to the neck-throat region, suggesting staging.  It was difficult enough for Jeremy to shoot her as it is, but much easier to shoot her in the neck/throat than intra-orally.  Conversely, it is easier for Sheila to shoot herself intra-orally than in the neck/throat.  Therefore, the wound locations point to Jeremy as the killer.

5. She had only very small traces of incriminating residues on her that could have got there through normal activities. 

6. Nothing incriminating was found under her nails, despite a belief among the SOCO team at the time that she had committed suicide after struggling with Nevill, then killing him and the rest.

7. Only one recorded fingerprint on the rifle, despite a belief among the SOCO team at the time that she had committed suicide and killed the rest by using the rifle, including maybe two or three reloads.

Probably there are more points you can come up with, but that'll do us for now.

Can these points be assailed?  Points 2 and 3 are of most interest because there is scope for fresh evidence on these.

I don't believe Jeremy can overcome point 4.  The only reply I can think of is that maybe Sheila wanted to preserve her face and perhaps she had a mistaken belief that she could do so by shooting herself in the neck/throat rather than in the mouth, or maybe she didn't know how to kill herself by shooting in the mouth, but I'm not very convinced.  Sorry to be morbid.

I think he can overcome 1, 5, 6 and 7.  Points 1 and 7 can be waved away.  Points 5 and 6, the problem of a lack of residue and traces under her nails, is easily addressed through Professor Knight's theory.  If she cleaned herself, it would remove the forensic footprint, not totally, but to an extent that it might not be recorded by the police.  As bizarre as it may sound, it is plausible that she would clean herself.  Whether she really did or not doesn't matter for our purposes.  The point is that it is plausible.

That just leaves point 2 and 3, which as I say are the ones where there is scope for fresh evidence.

On point 2, if expert evidence was forthcoming that confirmed she potentially could have had a violent psychotic episode of that magnitude, that would quash the conviction, though it probably wouldn't be sufficient for an acquittal should the Crown proceed to re-try the case.

Point 3 is the stronger of the two.  If it can be shown that the sedation explanation for Sheila's actions is misconceived and she could have been alert, then I think there's reasonable doubt.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 04:36:PM by QCChevalier »

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2020, 04:32:PM »





There's plenty of reasonable doubt to my mind over lots of things and this subject of sedation is only a drop in the ocean in comparison as are many pretty weak in their suggestions of how the crime was committed by Jeremy.

Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can.  I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case.  If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.

There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%.  But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to. 

I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised.  Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2020, 06:23:PM »
Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can.  I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case.  If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.

There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%.  But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to. 

I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised.  Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.
If you look at the evidence not just the last week of her life, where she had attended parties to keep up appearances, but since her illness and hospitalization you will find a scatty, disorganized individual redolent of a simple, ingenuous, gullible girl. There are numerous examples from the twins being late for school whilst in her care to the Tiptree visit to the final telephone call from Pamela to substantiate her lethargy. Sheila was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter by an unscrupulous conman, who murdered his parents and spattered the blood of his twin nephews on the bedhead behind  for a million pound inheritance and the possession of a £38,000 Porsche, which was on his mind only hours after the massacre.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 06:34:PM by Steve_uk »

Online QCChevalier

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2020, 06:34:PM »
If you look at the evidence not just the last week of her life, where she had attended parties to keep up appearances, but since her illness and hospitalization you will find a scatty, disorganized individual redolent of a simple, ingenuous, gullible girl. There are numerous examples from the twins being late for school whilst in her care to the Tiptree visit to the final telephone call from Pamela to substantiate her lethargy. Sheila was led to her death like a lamb to the slaughter by an unscrupulous conman, who murdered his parents and spattered the blood of his twin nephews on the bedhead behind  for a million pound inheritance and the possession of a £38,000 Porsche with which he hoped to pull the birds.

Thanks Steve.  Interesting.  It is what I have heard and read elsewhere.  It is difficult because there is conflicting information.  That's the problem, I suppose - there are so many different topics and issues that one could drill down and look at in greater depth.  Not that I doubt what you say.

As I said above, my leaning is towards Guilt.  My suspicion is that Jeremy did this pretty much as you outline but I differ from the conventional view on this in that I do not believe he planned it and I doubt the inheritance motive.  I think he overestimated the lethality of the .22 Anschutz and bullets and found himself unexpectedly having to struggle with Nevill.

Offline David1819

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2020, 06:36:PM »
Maybe so, but he's still in prison and you look for what you can.  I think the 'sedation' issue is a hinge of the Crown's case.  If doubt can be cast on it, then the prosecution case falls because an 'alert Sheila' cannot be explained without tremendous difficulty.

There is a case against him: I would put it at well over 90%, somewhere like 95%/96%.  But my view is that it does not quite reach the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.  When you drill down into the detail, it doesn't quite hang together in the way that it needs to. 

I'm not shocked that he was convicted, but I am quite surprised.  Possibly he has suffered from bad or indifferent lawyering, or there is some other factor.

If I remember correctly the sedation issue is brought up in Dr Bradley's testimony

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9088.msg429208.html#msg429208

Offline Adam

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2020, 07:08:PM »
Thanks Steve.  Interesting.  It is what I have heard and read elsewhere.  It is difficult because there is conflicting information.  That's the problem, I suppose - there are so many different topics and issues that one could drill down and look at in greater depth.  Not that I doubt what you say.

As I said above, my leaning is towards Guilt.  My suspicion is that Jeremy did this pretty much as you outline but I differ from the conventional view on this in that I do not believe he planned it and I doubt the inheritance motive.  I think he overestimated the lethality of the .22 Anschutz and bullets and found himself unexpectedly having to struggle with Nevill.

Do not believe he planned it?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2020, 09:07:PM »
Do not believe he planned it?
He planned it in his head for months but may have dithered on the night. No consolation to Colin.

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Re: Brief Thoughts On The Case
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2020, 10:00:PM »
Thanks.  You know, while I think the ballistics (especially the silencer) are at the core of this case, I actually take the view that the Crown's case against Jeremy hinges on the whole 'sedation' issue.  If it can be shown that Sheila could (I only say could) have been alert within the range of norm, then that would make the prosecution's scenario look much less plausible because you have to explain what Sheila was doing and - ironically - the fact she was found clean works in Jeremy's favour.

To be clear: I am not suggesting it would be impossible for Jeremy to do this, and I am not suggesting Jeremy is innocent or that Sheila did clean herself.  It doesn't really matter what I think or believe in terms of hypotheticals.  I only say that if Sheila was alert, then it would be difficult for Jeremy to have done this, perhaps so difficult that there is reasonable doubt.






Sheila would have been experiencing a pre-psychotic episode as she'd been quiet that night. The calm before the storm as this is classic behaviour of those who are about to strike. Coupled with a less than acceptable dose of Haldol which is a type of anti-psychotic that has to be reduced gradually and not halved in one go as it was done as that can be as dangerous as not having any at all.

The amount of stress that Sheila was under was enough to trigger a psychosis. I can't emphasise enough that over ten years of her life there was an abortion and a couple of mis-carriages before she had the twins and I doubt for one minute that Sheila had any sort of counselling for her losses and this is where her mental health issues would have stemmed from. Then her husband left her for another woman.

Then a mother who wasn't exactly supportive and who had mental health problems herself as for whatever reason she was visiting her GP regularly up until the tragedy. Then the only person in Sheila's life, her father, had shown more concern for his ailing wife so that Sheila had felt abandoned altogether .

Sheila would have only been partially aware if at all at what she was doing on the night of the murders because her mind would have been cut off from reality which is why she also killed her sons. There'd have been no planning involved just a sudden impulse as befits those who have psychosis and all are different in their actions/ signs of an impending attack.