Author Topic: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign  (Read 1212 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2020, 11:46:AM »
I am probably being naive, but for goodness sake why didn't Joe Stone just say that documentation that exists in the scientific examination records composed by forensic scientists proves beyond any doubt that one silencer examined measured 7 inches long and another measured 6.5 inches long. Malcolm Fletcher in particular documented several measurements that he attributed to what are clearly different silencers. As Roch says, the defence appear to be fannying around with doomed legalistic arguments.

It is also a red herring for anyone to insist that two silencers were recovered from WHF. Evidence points to the Boutflour family handing a silencer to the police in September 1985 which almost certainly was not found at WHF even if it was taken there for the purpose of damaging the Aga surround and impacting flakes of red paint into the knurled part of the silencer. Evidence suggests that the second silencer is not even a Parker-Hale, as Parker-Hale have never manufactured a 6.5 inch silencer. Having researched on the documentation for many years I came to the conclusion that the silencer that was handed to the police in September 1985 was 6.5 inches long and contained blood from Robert Boutflour, which indicates deliberate planting of the blood inside a silencer. This evidence is all available to Jeremy's defence team. Why don't they just come out with it?

The 13th of August examination record has the silencer being 6.9 inches long. The 25th of September examination record has the silencer being 17.6cm long. 

6.9 inches = 17.526cm

I guess Joe Stone never brought it up because its fictional?

Offline ngb1066

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2020, 12:49:PM »
Fair enough, but if someone is invested in a dead end, it can be better to point it out than not to.

You may be right but I doubt if they would listen to me and in fairness I no longer have any link with what is going on and I may be wide of the mark in my views. 



 

Offline David1819

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2020, 02:12:PM »
You may be right but I doubt if they would listen to me and in fairness I no longer have any link with what is going on and I may be wide of the mark in my views.

Someone needs to put together a dossier on the sound moderator

Offline Roch

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2020, 02:18:PM »
Someone needs to put together a dossier on the sound moderator

There needs also to be simpler, paired down message for press and public, based upon the salient points of the dossier. 


Offline Bill Robertson

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2020, 02:54:PM »
The 13th of August examination record has the silencer being 6.9 inches long. The 25th of September examination record has the silencer being 17.6cm long. 

6.9 inches = 17.526cm

I guess Joe Stone never brought it up because its fictional?

In their promotional literature for the Standard MM1 type sound moderator Parker Hale give the specifications as:
   “Length - 175 mm (6 9/10ths of an inch)”
On 25 September 1985, forensic scientist Brian Elliott from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory created an examination record of the: “silencer for rifle SBJ/1”. The description he wrote of the silencer stated :
   “1 metal gun silencer – sound moderator. Length 17.6 cm [6 9/10 inch].”
On 29 and 30 April 1986, Malcolm Fletcher a forensic scientist from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory conducted various tests on a .22 rifle (taken from the scene) and a silencer and a sound moderator. The tests results referred to the length of the rifle barrel. Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “Barrel length 23 ¾  inches (60.3 mm)
On 5 November 1993 Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “.22 rifle with silencer attached was 28 ¾ + 6 9/10 = 35 13/20 inches or 175.2 mm”
On a JW/16 Laboratory examination form dated 12 September 1985 for an examination of the rifle and silencer, Malcolm Fletcher details :
   “O.L. [overall length] 43 inches. With silencer attached 49 ½ inches,
   Length of sound moderator measured 6 ½ inches 165.1 mm”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the M.T. [Muzzle to trigger length] he stated:
   “M.T. 28 ½ inches with the sound moderator 35 inches.
   Sound moderator’s length 6 ½ inches or 65.1 mm.”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the rifle’s barrel length and stated:
   “B   23 7/8 inches with sound moderator attached 30 3/8 inch: 165 mm”
Glynis Howard and Lesley Tucker examined a “silencer for rifle” SBJ/1 on 13 August 1985 :
o   “Silencer for rifle dated 13.08.85, SBJ/1 crossed out DB/1 inserted. Description One black metal silencer 6 and 4/10ths of an inch long. 166.1 mm”
A General Examination Record completed by Malcolm Fletcher dated 12 September 1985 stated:   
   “DB/1 was 7 inches long or 177.8 mm”
In 2002 Forensic Scientist for the Crown Martyn Ismail gave evidence in his 23 August 2002 witness statement that :
“The moderator was a black tube, 177 mm in length”
   [177 mm = 7 inches]
In undated notes taken at around the table meeting Malcolm Fletcher stated :
“The rifle (sic) [presumably he meant the silencer]was 6 ½ inches in length, photographed and referred to as photograph 65 (Never disclosed).
also :
“Length of weapon. 43” long 49 ½  inches with silencer. (i.e. 6 ½ inch silencer)

Therefore numerous examinations of the silencer by various forensic scientists showed that two different silencers were being examined at various times during the process of investigation. Malcolm Fletcher and Essex Police convinced the Defence and the Courts that the case featured a single silencer/sound moderator and yet the above documentation shows that there were two silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long. Presumably, the 6.5 inch silencer was not a Parker-Hale. Malcolm Fletcher handled both silencers and therefore knew about the deception before the case went to trial.

Offline David1819

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2020, 03:43:PM »
In their promotional literature for the Standard MM1 type sound moderator Parker Hale give the specifications as:
   “Length - 175 mm (6 9/10ths of an inch)”
On 25 September 1985, forensic scientist Brian Elliott from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory created an examination record of the: “silencer for rifle SBJ/1”. The description he wrote of the silencer stated :
   “1 metal gun silencer – sound moderator. Length 17.6 cm [6 9/10 inch].”
On 29 and 30 April 1986, Malcolm Fletcher a forensic scientist from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory conducted various tests on a .22 rifle (taken from the scene) and a silencer and a sound moderator. The tests results referred to the length of the rifle barrel. Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “Barrel length 23 ¾  inches (60.3 mm)
On 5 November 1993 Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “.22 rifle with silencer attached was 28 ¾ + 6 9/10 = 35 13/20 inches or 175.2 mm”
On a JW/16 Laboratory examination form dated 12 September 1985 for an examination of the rifle and silencer, Malcolm Fletcher details :
   “O.L. [overall length] 43 inches. With silencer attached 49 ½ inches,
   Length of sound moderator measured 6 ½ inches 165.1 mm”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the M.T. [Muzzle to trigger length] he stated:
   “M.T. 28 ½ inches with the sound moderator 35 inches.
   Sound moderator’s length 6 ½ inches or 65.1 mm.”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the rifle’s barrel length and stated:
   “B   23 7/8 inches with sound moderator attached 30 3/8 inch: 165 mm”
Howard and Lesley Tucker examined a “silencer for rifle” SBJ/1 on 13 August 1985 :
o   “Silencer for rifle dated 13.08.85, SBJ/1 crossed out DB/1 inserted. Description One black metal silencer 6 and 4/10ths of an inch long.
166.1 mm”
A General Examination Record completed by Malcolm Fletcher dated 12 September 1985 stated:   
   “DB/1 was 7 inches long or 177.8 mm”
In 2002 Forensic Scientist for the Crown Martyn Ismail gave evidence in his 23 August 2002 witness statement that :
“The moderator was a black tube, 177 mm in length”
   [177 mm = 7 inches]
In undated notes taken at around the table meeting Malcolm Fletcher stated :
“The rifle (sic) [presumably he meant the silencer]was 6 ½ inches in length, photographed and referred to as photograph 65 (Never disclosed).
also :
“Length of weapon. 43” long 49 ½  inches with silencer. (i.e. 6 ½ inch silencer)

Therefore numerous examinations of the silencer by various forensic scientists showed that two different silencers were being examined at various times during the process of investigation. Malcolm Fletcher and Essex Police convinced the Defence and the Courts that the case featured a single silencer/sound moderator and yet the above documentation shows that there were two silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long. Presumably, the 6.5 inch silencer was not a Parker-Hale. Malcolm Fletcher handled both silencers and therefore knew about the deception before the case went to trial.


The 13th of August SBJ/1 examination record states the moderator is 6 and 9/10ths of an inch long. It might look like a 4 at a distance but look closely its a 9.

lol




Offline Adam

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2020, 04:45:PM »
In their promotional literature for the Standard MM1 type sound moderator Parker Hale give the specifications as:
   “Length - 175 mm (6 9/10ths of an inch)”
On 25 September 1985, forensic scientist Brian Elliott from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory created an examination record of the: “silencer for rifle SBJ/1”. The description he wrote of the silencer stated :
   “1 metal gun silencer – sound moderator. Length 17.6 cm [6 9/10 inch].”
On 29 and 30 April 1986, Malcolm Fletcher a forensic scientist from Huntingdon Forensic Laboratory conducted various tests on a .22 rifle (taken from the scene) and a silencer and a sound moderator. The tests results referred to the length of the rifle barrel. Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “Barrel length 23 ¾  inches (60.3 mm)
On 5 November 1993 Malcolm Fletcher stated :
   “.22 rifle with silencer attached was 28 ¾ + 6 9/10 = 35 13/20 inches or 175.2 mm”
On a JW/16 Laboratory examination form dated 12 September 1985 for an examination of the rifle and silencer, Malcolm Fletcher details :
   “O.L. [overall length] 43 inches. With silencer attached 49 ½ inches,
   Length of sound moderator measured 6 ½ inches 165.1 mm”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the M.T. [Muzzle to trigger length] he stated:
   “M.T. 28 ½ inches with the sound moderator 35 inches.
   Sound moderator’s length 6 ½ inches or 65.1 mm.”
Malcolm Fletcher then measured the rifle’s barrel length and stated:
   “B   23 7/8 inches with sound moderator attached 30 3/8 inch: 165 mm”
Glynis Howard and Lesley Tucker examined a “silencer for rifle” SBJ/1 on 13 August 1985 :
o   “Silencer for rifle dated 13.08.85, SBJ/1 crossed out DB/1 inserted. Description One black metal silencer 6 and 4/10ths of an inch long. 166.1 mm”
A General Examination Record completed by Malcolm Fletcher dated 12 September 1985 stated:   
   “DB/1 was 7 inches long or 177.8 mm”
In 2002 Forensic Scientist for the Crown Martyn Ismail gave evidence in his 23 August 2002 witness statement that :
“The moderator was a black tube, 177 mm in length”
   [177 mm = 7 inches]
In undated notes taken at around the table meeting Malcolm Fletcher stated :
“The rifle (sic) [presumably he meant the silencer]was 6 ½ inches in length, photographed and referred to as photograph 65 (Never disclosed).
also :
“Length of weapon. 43” long 49 ½  inches with silencer. (i.e. 6 ½ inch silencer)

Therefore numerous examinations of the silencer by various forensic scientists showed that two different silencers were being examined at various times during the process of investigation. Malcolm Fletcher and Essex Police convinced the Defence and the Courts that the case featured a single silencer/sound moderator and yet the above documentation shows that there were two silencers, one 7 inches long and one 6.5 inches long. Presumably, the 6.5 inch silencer was not a Parker-Hale. Malcolm Fletcher handled both silencers and therefore knew about the deception before the case went to trial.

That's what I thought.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2020, 05:45:PM »
Especially when you have a clown like Elmer Fudd ( Fletcher ) thinking he knows everything about ballistics whose experience of a toy gun taught him everything he knows  ::)

Offline David1819

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2020, 05:51:PM »
That's what I thought.

What’s what you thought?

Offline Bill Robertson

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 06:13:AM »

The 13th of August SBJ/1 examination record states the moderator is 6 and 9/10ths of an inch long. It might look like a 4 at a distance but look closely its a 9.
On 29 April 1986 at 11:30 am a sound moderator was examined by forensic scientist Glynis Howard and Detective Inspector Ronald Cook.  A diagram was drawn by them to indicate the location of an additional blood group discovered in the sound moderator, on the fourth and/or fifth baffle plates . This diagram can be viewed at http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.15.html diagram 14, the diagram is at the bottom of the page.
                                 

The blood group discovered (EAP  BA  HP2) exactly matches that of David Boutflour and Pamela Boutflour and not any of the deceased. The 1986 Jury were not advised of the discovery of this second blood group inside a sound moderator.

The question of course is, how did blood belonging to either of those two individuals come to be found inside the sound moderator unless it was planted there deliberately?

 
Based on the physical appearance of the sound moderator examined on 29 April 1986 it was not a Parker-Hale sound moderator at all because the drawing lacks the central groove found on Parker-Hale silencers. Scientific results pertaining to it would later be merged with the genuine Parker-Hale sound moderator to make a composite exhibit used in Court to bring about the conviction of Jeremy Bamber.

It seems that DI Ron Cook remained puzzled by the origin of blood inside a silencer right up until the start of the trial. Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine (Ann) Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer". Why he would do this if the blood inside the silencer had been identified as belonging to Sheila Caffell in August 1985 is a mystery. Clearly, Cook had suspicions that there was blood in a silencer that did not belong to Sheila. Therefore, it would appear that the Boutflour family contributed at least two drops of blood inside one or more silencers in an attempt to frame Jeremy Bamber, one sample coming from Robert Boutflour and one from either David or Pamela Boutflour. My money would be on David.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 07:32:AM »
Can somebody please just lay it on the line, that the original sound moderator evidence was fabricated?

These days, the authorities are very reliant upon other legal professionals (and the public) believing that the original sound moderator evidence was both genuine and "compelling".   

Somebody needs to bluntly point out, that it's not a kosher exhibit.  Otherwise, you're just going to be experiencing knock back after knock back, for the remainder of Jeremy Bamber's life.

Just say it. 

People understand things in simple terms.  They understand, if something is alleged to be dodgy.  Once you have got that message across, so that the seed is planted in people's minds, THEN you start going in to more detail. 

Instead of being seen to shore-up a genuine exhibit, the authorities have to be portrayed as shoring up a dodgy exhibit.  You have to introduce doubt, in order to have any chance of making them look dishonest.  Once they look dishonest (by defending an exhibit with so much doubt attached to it) it starts to get more and more uncomfortable for them to continue to defend it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-52940026
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Online Steve_uk

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2020, 08:23:AM »
On 29 April 1986 at 11:30 am a sound moderator was examined by forensic scientist Glynis Howard and Detective Inspector Ronald Cook.  A diagram was drawn by them to indicate the location of an additional blood group discovered in the sound moderator, on the fourth and/or fifth baffle plates . This diagram can be viewed at http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.15.html diagram 14, the diagram is at the bottom of the page.
                                 

The blood group discovered (EAP  BA  HP2) exactly matches that of David Boutflour and Pamela Boutflour and not any of the deceased. The 1986 Jury were not advised of the discovery of this second blood group inside a sound moderator.

The question of course is, how did blood belonging to either of those two individuals come to be found inside the sound moderator unless it was planted there deliberately?

 
Based on the physical appearance of the sound moderator examined on 29 April 1986 it was not a Parker-Hale sound moderator at all because the drawing lacks the central groove found on Parker-Hale silencers. Scientific results pertaining to it would later be merged with the genuine Parker-Hale sound moderator to make a composite exhibit used in Court to bring about the conviction of Jeremy Bamber.

It seems that DI Ron Cook remained puzzled by the origin of blood inside a silencer right up until the start of the trial. Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine (Ann) Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer". Why he would do this if the blood inside the silencer had been identified as belonging to Sheila Caffell in August 1985 is a mystery. Clearly, Cook had suspicions that there was blood in a silencer that did not belong to Sheila. Therefore, it would appear that the Boutflour family contributed at least two drops of blood inside one or more silencers in an attempt to frame Jeremy Bamber, one sample coming from Robert Boutflour and one from either David or Pamela Boutflour. My money would be on David.
I can't find this photograph. I suggest that you provide a link. I didn't know Pamela Boutflour provided any blood sample in 1986 but obliged for the 2002 appeal. Wasn't the AK-1 enzyme present in the silencer anyway in 1986, matching Sheila, Nevill, Nicholas and Daniel?

Offline lookout

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2020, 12:51:PM »
I'm sure that I read that all the Boutflour's had that enzyme. It would stand to reason since RWB had it himself which must have been a genetic structure in their blood.

Then again, rabbits and some other vermin have it too which would account for it being on the rifle since it was AP who'd used it last when he killed a couple of rabbits.

Offline Caroline

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2020, 02:41:PM »
I can't find this photograph. I suggest that you provide a link. I didn't know Pamela Boutflour provided any blood sample in 1986 but obliged for the 2002 appeal. Wasn't the AK-1 enzyme present in the silencer anyway in 1986, matching Sheila, Nevill, Nicholas and Daniel?

Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline Caroline

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Re: FAO Jeremy's legal team and campaign
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2020, 03:00:PM »
On 29 April 1986 at 11:30 am a sound moderator was examined by forensic scientist Glynis Howard and Detective Inspector Ronald Cook.  A diagram was drawn by them to indicate the location of an additional blood group discovered in the sound moderator, on the fourth and/or fifth baffle plates . This diagram can be viewed at http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,887.15.html diagram 14, the diagram is at the bottom of the page.
                                 

The blood group discovered (EAP  BA  HP2) exactly matches that of David Boutflour and Pamela Boutflour and not any of the deceased. The 1986 Jury were not advised of the discovery of this second blood group inside a sound moderator.

The question of course is, how did blood belonging to either of those two individuals come to be found inside the sound moderator unless it was planted there deliberately?

 
Based on the physical appearance of the sound moderator examined on 29 April 1986 it was not a Parker-Hale sound moderator at all because the drawing lacks the central groove found on Parker-Hale silencers. Scientific results pertaining to it would later be merged with the genuine Parker-Hale sound moderator to make a composite exhibit used in Court to bring about the conviction of Jeremy Bamber.

It seems that DI Ron Cook remained puzzled by the origin of blood inside a silencer right up until the start of the trial. Cook created ‘Action 1627’ on 19 September 1986. With the Trial just weeks away, DI Cook asked for blood samples to be taken from relatives Robert and David Boutflour and David and Christine (Ann) Eaton, for the purpose “to prove the origin of the sample inside the silencer". Why he would do this if the blood inside the silencer had been identified as belonging to Sheila Caffell in August 1985 is a mystery. Clearly, Cook had suspicions that there was blood in a silencer that did not belong to Sheila. Therefore, it would appear that the Boutflour family contributed at least two drops of blood inside one or more silencers in an attempt to frame Jeremy Bamber, one sample coming from Robert Boutflour and one from either David or Pamela Boutflour. My money would be on David.

Few people have the imagination for reality