Author Topic: DNA evidence in Scotland  (Read 548 times)

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Offline sandra L

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DNA evidence in Scotland
« on: March 09, 2020, 07:10:PM »
Professor Allan Jamieson talking about the difficulties of defence teams getting access to forensic evidence in Scotland - quote

"It means scientific police evidence — including DNA samples — must be accepted as fact without scrutiny.

Scotland is the only country in the civilised world where lawyers are denied access to this key evidence."


One of the many anomalies that the rest of the world doesn't realise exist in Scots Law.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5364587/forensics-expert-defence-lawyer-scots-dna/

Offline WakeyWakey

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2020, 11:53:PM »
One of the many anomalies that the rest of the world doesn't realise exist in Scots Law.


can you explain what about scot law maakes this a problem? Prof himself says (or implies) that it nothing to do with law:

Quote
I’m not accusing anyone of fraud. But the system should be designed to prevent fraud. This is a matter of fairness — and not even of the law. It doesn’t even require a change in the law, no one has told the SPA not to give us these files.

Offline WakeyWakey

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2020, 12:01:AM »
also i wonder why i guy who long been tryin to lobby for set up and lead private company / forensic institute to replace current police forensics would criticise current police forensics lol

Offline nugnug

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2020, 12:04:AM »
Professor Allan Jamieson talking about the difficulties of defence teams getting access to forensic evidence in Scotland - quote

"It means scientific police evidence — including DNA samples — must be accepted as fact without scrutiny.

Scotland is the only country in the civilised world where lawyers are denied access to this key evidence."


One of the many anomalies that the rest of the world doesn't realise exist in Scots Law.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5364587/forensics-expert-defence-lawyer-scots-dna/

happens all the time in amerca so i cant see why scotland cant allow it.

Offline sandra L

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2020, 08:42:PM »
Before I answer your questions, Wakey wakey, let me ask you a couple.

Do you believe it is right or just that critical evidence such as this, generated by the police themselves, should be taken at face value, or do you think it is only right and just that it is scrutinised by independent experts?

Which do you believe is likely to be more transparent and able to be challenged - data from a private lab which has to publish its findings, or data from a private and secret lab, funded and run by those seeking prosecutions?

They're not trick questions.

Now, to your questions.  The anomalies in Scots Law are not restricted to the written word of the law but extend far into the interpretations and applications of it, which is exactly the position Prof Jamieson describes here. There is no written law that says they can't release the information for scrutiny, but somebody, somewhere has interpreted or applied their own understanding to the situation and decided the information should not be released.

The gap between the courts and police practices is either so wide that it cannot be bridged, or so narrow that it can't be found (and sometimes it's both at the same time) - the courts are reluctant (putting it mildly) to order the release of those documents.

Quite recently, an expert who was quite happy to release his findings came back to say he'd checked and could not do so without "the prosecution's permission, since they commissioned the report" - yet the legal position is that experts are independent of either the prosecution or the defence. Either way, we still have not received the report.(The expert is not Prof Jamieson, just for clarity).

Why does Prof Jamieson advocate for independent labs? He was head of Lothian and Borders Police Forensic Science Lab before he quit. He hardly needs the work now - just take a look at the cases he's been involved in - your suggestion that he somehow advocated for independent labs for personal gain is ill-informed, to say the least. His concern is, and always has been, that "diluted" science is not science, period. And we all know how easy it is for secret practices to dilute science - to manipulate it for their own purposes.

Do you have any objections to independent labs, properly run and openly accountable?

Offline nugnug

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2020, 02:28:AM »
i wonder how many of those uniditried prfiles really are unidentifeid

Offline Lithium

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2020, 10:03:AM »
Does this mean you've never even had access to all of the DNA evidence, Lean?

Oh dear.

Offline nugnug

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2020, 03:46:PM »
Before I answer your questions, Wakey wakey, let me ask you a couple.

Do you believe it is right or just that critical evidence such as this, generated by the police themselves, should be taken at face value, or do you think it is only right and just that it is scrutinised by independent experts?

Which do you believe is likely to be more transparent and able to be challenged - data from a private lab which has to publish its findings, or data from a private and secret lab, funded and run by those seeking prosecutions?

They're not trick questions.

Now, to your questions.  The anomalies in Scots Law are not restricted to the written word of the law but extend far into the interpretations and applications of it, which is exactly the position Prof Jamieson describes here. There is no written law that says they can't release the information for scrutiny, but somebody, somewhere has interpreted or applied their own understanding to the situation and decided the information should not be released.

The gap between the courts and police practices is either so wide that it cannot be bridged, or so narrow that it can't be found (and sometimes it's both at the same time) - the courts are reluctant (putting it mildly) to order the release of those documents.

Quite recently, an expert who was quite happy to release his findings came back to say he'd checked and could not do so without "the prosecution's permission, since they commissioned the report" - yet the legal position is that experts are independent of either the prosecution or the defence. Either way, we still have not received the report.(The expert is not Prof Jamieson, just for clarity).

Why does Prof Jamieson advocate for independent labs? He was head of Lothian and Borders Police Forensic Science Lab before he quit. He hardly needs the work now - just take a look at the cases he's been involved in - your suggestion that he somehow advocated for independent labs for personal gain is ill-informed, to say the least. His concern is, and always has been, that "diluted" science is not science, period. And we all know how easy it is for secret practices to dilute science - to manipulate it for their own purposes.

Do you have any objections to independent labs, properly run and openly accountable?

well theres a very good reason certan people dont want labs to be open and acountable.

Offline sandra L

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2020, 09:42:AM »
Does this mean you've never even had access to all of the DNA evidence, Lean?

Oh dear.

Did you read the article, Lithium? It's about not being able to challenge the Police results, rather than not being able to see them. As I've said for a very long time, we know the police results in Luke's case are flawed - what we want is access to the original samples to have them properly tested.

Obviously, if the police had anything linking Luke to the case, they'd have used it, wouldn't they? Or do you think they're deliberately suppressing "silver bullet" evidence just to piss me off? That's silly!

Tell me, would you have any objection to us having access to results that came back at the time "no reportable result" to have tested at our own expense? What if there was a suggestion that those results might identify someone else? Should they be tested?

Offline Davie2

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2020, 06:54:PM »
- what we want is access to the original samples to have them properly tested.

You can want all you want. You are not going to get them.

Offline nugnug

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2020, 07:30:PM »
You can want all you want. You are not going to get them.

keep telling yourself that.

Offline sandra L

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2020, 08:16:AM »
You can want all you want. You are not going to get them.

Wouldn't be so sure about that Davie2.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2020, 08:58:PM by sandra L »

Offline nugnug

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2020, 08:55:PM »
out of dave why would youcare weather sandra got them or not.

Offline WakeyWakey

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2020, 12:15:AM »
Why does Prof Jamieson advocate for independent labs? He was head of Lothian and Borders Police Forensic Science Lab before he quit.

let not pretend he quit of own volition. he was suspended without pay while lengthy investigation of his directorship of forensic allience took place. and left imediately after.

Which do you believe is likely to be more transparent and able to be challenged - data from a private lab which has to publish its findings, or data from a private and secret lab, funded and run by those seeking prosecutions?

They're not trick questions.

why would private owned, shareholder owned lab serving police customers who seek prosecution be more transparent better placed to be open about results than police run labs subject to forensic science regulator and answerable to home office? if anything profit motive and absolute zero enforcing of quality standard means theres far more opportunity for coruption.


Do you believe it is right or just that critical evidence such as this, generated by the police themselves, should be taken at face value, or do you think it is only right and just that it is scrutinised by independent experts?

Do you have any objections to independent labs, properly run and openly accountable?

truly independent? right on! but you dont get independent expert in unregulated marketplace. pay to win


Offline sandra L

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Re: DNA evidence in Scotland
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2020, 08:55:PM »
Quote
why would private owned, shareholder owned lab serving police customers who seek prosecution be more transparent better placed to be open about results than police run labs subject to forensic science regulator and answerable to home office? if anything profit motive and absolute zero enforcing of quality standard means theres far more opportunity for coruption.

Wakey, we agree! Neither is better placed than the other to deliver truly independent results. Unless, of course, one group goes out on a limb and says, I don't care who pays, if anyone pays, all that matters to me is what the science says, and I'll speak that result regardless of the audience?
What then?