Author Topic: Michael winner - True Crimes  (Read 610 times)

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Offline Kaldin

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2020, 07:43:PM »
Yes but it was cut off quickly..

He put the receiver down, which is not the same as being cut off. The line was open.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2020, 07:57:PM »
He put the receiver down, which is not the same as being cut off. The line was open.

Or pressed one of the black buttons (or his assailant did) - same effect as putting the receiver down.
'Cut off' is a generic term in that sense... his conversation was cut short / cut off.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2020, 07:58:PM »
I repeat: what the Jeremy supporters are asking us to believe is ridiculous.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2020, 07:59:PM »
Or pressed one of the black buttons (or his assailant did) - same effect as putting the receiver down.
'Cut off' is a generic term in that sense... his conversation was cut short / cut off.

No. If that happened the line wouldn't be open.

Offline David1819

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2020, 08:30:PM »
I repeat: what the Jeremy supporters are asking us to believe is ridiculous.

Far less ridiculous than the claims you make on this forum.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2020, 08:33:PM »
Is the Michael Winner version better than the new ITV serial? The location seems more authentic somehow.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2020, 09:32:PM »
No. If that happened the line wouldn't be open.

What is your definition of putting the receiver down. Simply putting it down on a surface has zero effect.
'Putting the receiver down' is usually deemed to be returning it to the cradle and thus depressing the black buttons.

Offline JackieD

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2020, 09:35:PM »
His body wasn't examined at the time and he had time to change clothes.
He was physically stronger and had the gun, and we have no indication of what clothing he wore.

That isn't to say Sheila couldn't overpower him with a gun, simply that Jeremy stood the better chance.

However, the telephone call still remains a huge issue. Either Sheila had already started shooting people, or she hadn't:

- If she had already started shooting people, then the call makes less sense than ever as Jeremy would be a bad choice to call, might not answer, and even if he did, it would be odd not to actually mention she'd shot someone!

- If she had NOT already started shooting, then she's confronting a fit Nevill at that point, and thus if she shot and killed him in the kitchen, there is a huge discrepancy with expended cartridges in the bedroom and lack of them in the kitchen (not enough).

Sorry for the late reply but I have been out

If Jeremy had any marks on him at all 100% Mugford would have told the police
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline JackieD

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2020, 09:36:PM »
A woman with a shotgun.
Either she had already shot and killed, or she'd not.
If she had, then it's gone way beyond an altercation, and Nevill is hardly likely to be thinking Jeremy will be blamed!
If she had not already shot and killed, then sure, he might phone Jeremy, but that would mean he was fully fit at that point - and the evidence doesn't stack up.

Seriously, if someone has let loose with a shotgun, I don't think anybody of sound mind is thinking anything other than to protect themselves - not how someone might end up being wrongly accused. Besides a 999 phone to say 'Sheila is shooting us' would remove all doubt wouldn't it?

He didn't call 999 did he?

For obvious reasons
From Colin Caffells
His relationship with Sheila was one of brotherly love. He was very proud of having a beautiful sister who was a photographic model

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2020, 10:24:PM »
A woman with a shotgun.
Either she had already shot and killed, or she'd not.
If she had, then it's gone way beyond an altercation, and Nevill is hardly likely to be thinking Jeremy will be blamed!
If she had not already shot and killed, then sure, he might phone Jeremy, but that would mean he was fully fit at that point - and the evidence doesn't stack up.

Seriously, if someone has let loose with a shotgun, I don't think anybody of sound mind is thinking anything other than to protect themselves - not how someone might end up being wrongly accused. Besides a 999 phone to say 'Sheila is shooting us' would remove all doubt wouldn't it?

He didn't call 999 did he?

I agree to an extent, but I think we have to step back here.  I have discussed this in some detail with Jeremy.  The only credible scenario from a defence viewpoint is that Nevill called Jeremy before any shot had been fired, and certainly before Nevill had been injured.  The situation was worrying, but not something which it was thought could not be handled without police involvement.  If this is looked at in that way it is quite easy to reconcile the known facts.  It also explains the lack of a 999 call by either Nevill or Jeremy.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 10:57:PM by ngb1066 »

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2020, 06:41:AM »
What is your definition of putting the receiver down. Simply putting it down on a surface has zero effect.
'Putting the receiver down' is usually deemed to be returning it to the cradle and thus depressing the black buttons.

I mean the receiver was placed on the kitchen surface without cutting the call off so the line was still open.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2020, 06:58:AM »
I agree to an extent, but I think we have to step back here.  I have discussed this in some detail with Jeremy.  The only credible scenario from a defence viewpoint is that Nevill called Jeremy before any shot had been fired, and certainly before Nevill had been injured.  The situation was worrying, but not something which it was thought could not be handled without police involvement.  If this is looked at in that way it is quite easy to reconcile the known facts.  It also explains the lack of a 999 call by either Nevill or Jeremy.

It would potentially explain the lack of a 999 call, yes. But then it would lead to a situation where Nevill was downstairs uninjured, and his conversation cut short for some reason.

Now, that reason could be the struggle in the kitchen, but that would result in his death and leaves spent cartridges upstairs with no explanation.
If it wasn't the struggle in the kitchen, then he's been interrupted by a potential escalation of events and headed back upstairs. If this is the case, then it is difficult to explain the position of the gunshot wounds, as you would not reasonably expect him to end up on the opposite side of the bed to June (who may have been dead by then). You would most likely expect a confrontation on the stairs or the landing. On top of that, you still have to get Nevill back downstairs once more to meet his death (so that's two traversals of the stairs).

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2020, 07:06:AM »
It would potentially explain the lack of a 999 call, yes. But then it would lead to a situation where Nevill was downstairs uninjured, and his conversation cut short for some reason.

Now, that reason could be the struggle in the kitchen, but that would result in his death and leaves spent cartridges upstairs with no explanation.
If it wasn't the struggle in the kitchen, then he's been interrupted by a potential escalation of events and headed back upstairs. If this is the case, then it is difficult to explain the position of the gunshot wounds, as you would not reasonably expect him to end up on the opposite side of the bed to June (who may have been dead by then). You would most likely expect a confrontation on the stairs or the landing. On top of that, you still have to get Nevill back downstairs once more to meet his death (so that's two traversals of the stairs).

There's nothing to suggest that Nevill was on the opposite side of the bed to June when he was shot upstairs. He could have been shot as he came up the stairs. The shots to his face went in a downward direction, which suggests that he was lower than the shooter at that time.

June certainly was not dead. She had time to get out of the bed, go round the other side of the bed and come back to the door.

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2020, 07:09:AM »
There's nothing to suggest that Nevill was on the opposite side of the bed to June when he was shot upstairs. He could have been shot as he came up the stairs. The shots to his face went in a downward direction, which suggests that he was lower than the shooter at that time.

June certainly was not dead. She had time to get out of the bed, go round the other side of the bed and come back to the door.

The cartridges in the master bedroom don't suggest he was shot on the stairs.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Michael winner - True Crimes
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2020, 07:14:AM »
The cartridges in the master bedroom don't suggest he was shot on the stairs.

They could do. The shooter could have been in the room so the cartridges were in the room. One or two were found just outside the bedroom.