Shell Casings Next To Sheila

[ILB]

I believe this has come up before some time ago but, the Anschutz being a semi-automatic delivered a new shell into the chamber after the previous bullet had fired. During this process the fired shell casing is ejected from the weapon from the right hand side and had Sheila killed herself 'both' should have been found on 'her' left hand side as she lay on her back. However, the casings related to Sheila, were found both on her left (close to her head - not immediately obvious) and to her right (some distance from her body). As seen in the following diagram labelled DRH1 and DRH 2



If Sheila shot herself, how did one of the casings end up on her right side?

initially found or later discovered??? If you don't get where im coming from I will happily divulge

[Kaldin]

Yes. I was only pointing this out because Justice was implying the shot through the chin was inflicted when she was laying down.

I see what you mean. I think we can work out for ourselves what position she was in when the bullets were fired - based on the flow of blood.

Dr Vanezis did say that she would have immediately laid back after the second bullet. It's very difficult to imagine the position she was in beforehand. Was she sort of sitting up but leaning backwards? That's quite difficult unless you have very strong stomach muscles. She can't have been leaning on the bedside cabinet.

[guest7363]

According to the pathologist, Sheila was sitting up when both shots were inflicted.

I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

[Kaldin]

I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

She could have shot herself sitting up. For the second shot she would need to put her head right back to get the right angle, and she could have done that. I don't see how she could be "partially" sitting up though. When she fell back, the bedside cupboard was slightly in the way so her head went to the side.

[David1819]

I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

[guest7363]

She could have shot herself sitting up. For the second shot she would need to put her head right back to get the right angle, and she could have done that. I don't see how she could be "partially" sitting up though. When she fell back, the bedside cupboard was slightly in the way so her head went to the side.

Thats how I see it as well Kaldin.  There’s nothing to suggest she hit her head on the cabinet is there Kaldin falling back onto it?  I’ve not seen anything?

[guest7363]

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

What for both shots David?

[Kaldin]

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

He actually said "partially sitting up".

[Caroline]

initially found or later discovered??? If you don't get where im coming from I will happily divulge

Please divulge.

[Kaldin]

Thats how I see it as well Kaldin.  There’s nothing to suggest she hit her head on the cabinet is there Kaldin falling back onto it?  I’ve not seen anything?

I haven't seen anything either, but she might have just clipped in and there would be no injury from banging her head. Also, her head might have fallen naturally to the right as Dr Vanesiz said she was leaning slightly to the right.

[Caroline]

I can only go by this final picture of Sheila David, if we presume Sheila never moved and the shots were fired quickly after each other, there is no way she was sitting upright and imagine someone trying to kill them self with their head pressed into the cabinet,  their chin would drop forward and touch their chest?

After firing one shot, it would be very very difficult for Sheila  to lift the chin to administer the more under the chin shot?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4308

From her final position, how was she sitting up? There is nothing to support her body because she is too far down for the bedside table to have acted as support and there is nothing else she could have leaned against?

[Caroline]

"Dr Vanezis gave evidence that the nature of the blood stains to the nightdress suggested that Sheila Caffell was sitting up when she received both injuries. After the second injury she would have immediately fallen back."

She must have been sitting up for a few seconds in order for that blood to run down the night dress

The blood ran to the side.

[Caroline]

Whichever way yoy look at it, it's a problem.

[Kaldin]

The blood ran to the side.

And downwards.

[guest7363]

I haven't seen anything either, but she might have just clipped in and there would be no injury from banging her head. Also, her head might have fallen naturally to the right as Dr Vanesiz said she was leaning slightly to the right.

I think the problem was Dr Vanesiz did his autopsy, believing it was suicide so this would have had some persuasion to his findings, he was always critical of the fact he should have been called to the scene.