Author Topic: 44 Minutes.  (Read 340 times)

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Offline Parky41

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44 Minutes.
« on: October 24, 2019, 11:55:PM »
44mins:

One can theorize away about what took place in that 44mins - one thing that can not be changed.
That is the time frame - from this girl being reported missing to the police until that 999 call to say -
Something had been found at 11.34pm

Let us for this - go on Luke's timings, presuming them to be accurate to meeting with this search trio.

These timings of course - adding extra time onto the reality.
10.50pm Judith calls the police.
She does this, immediately after coming off the phone to Luke at 10.49pm.
In this call. Luke claims that Judith informed him, that she was going to be calling the police.
In this call, there is a claim of  a discussion - that this discussion was about meeting at Judith's.
That this meeting at Judith's was to go through some friends phone numbers, and to organise a search.
That Luke had offered to help search for Jodi, and to go through some numbers, of friends to phone.
That he came off the phone and had a discussion with his mother.
That he told his mother of this search. of going to Judith's. of looking through friends phone numbers, that he had.
That his mother had said "not at this time of night laddie, you're not"
That he was having none of this, it was not up for further discussion.
That he went upstairs and asked to borrow Shane's torch - filling his brother in also, as to the reasons why.
That Shane went downstairs, located the torch, gave it to Luke and returned upstairs.
That he got himself and the dog ready, lead on and left his house.
That whilst starting his walk on this path, he received a further call from Judith.
He informed Judith that he was on this path, with his dog.
 
SL:
Quote
Luke and Jodi's mother are consistent with him leaving his home at 10.52pm (following a call from Jodi's mother at 10.49pm) and arriving at the Newbattle end of the path at 10.59pm, when they spoke again on the phone.

Quote
Luke had told her he was "coming up the path on his bike" and that statement wasn't corrected until almost a month later when Judith told police she'd made a mistake - Luke hadn't said that at all, he'd said he was coming up the path "with his dog.
"

Quote
Luke went up to ask if he could borrow the torch, Shane got it for him and then went back up to his room.


The times of this were as follows.
That after that call at 10.49pm he had these conversations with both his mother and brother,
of getting the torch, getting ready and out the door at 10.52pm.
That he was on this path at 10.59pm when he received the call from Judith.
The one in which he informs her - he is on the path with his dog.
That he hurried up this path - shining his torch on it, he did not see Jodi whilst doing so.
That he hurried up this path - as he wanted to get to Judith's as quickly as possible.
CM makes this point clearly in her podcast, of how fit and fast - both Luke and the dog were.
As does Ms Lean:

Quote
The dog was not tracking on the way up. Luke was on his own, he wanted to get up the path as quickly as possible – if the dog had pulled over to the wall, he would have pulled her away – at that stage, he was only looking for Jodi on the path.





That whilst he was approaching the top end of this path he saw torchlight.
That this was from AW. JaJ and SK.
That they met, that he let them know that he hadn't really looked on the way up, but did not
see Jodi lying on this path.
That if they had anything of Jodi's, he could use this to allow his dog to scent.
That the purpose of this meet was to look/search for Jodi.
That he had not searched, he had not used his dog, that they then decided to
all search this path together.

Back to Luke's arrival on this path at 10.59pm.
We are told it takes 7mins at a brisk pace to walk from the junction of the path to the V point.

Quote
In short, the walk from the junction of the paths to the V point at a "brisk pace" in daylight was timed at 7 minutes

We know that the V point is much closer to the Newbattle end of this path.
Surely this would take no more than 3mins at Luke's pace.
Let us add on another 5mins - the time now is 11.14pm.
The reality of course by Luke's speed, should really be nearer to 11.10pm.

For all of this, at this point and this post - I'm going to skip the reality of timings by the search trio.
We are going here, solely on Luke's account of seeing this search trio - near the top of this path -
between 11.10pm and 11.14pm.
Take some time off for the conversation and we are now under 20mins.
In under 20mins of this search trio being together that call to 999 is made of something being found.

What we do know for sure is this.

That this search trio were looking in different places.
In the field, on the path, in the undergrowth on the path side of the wall, and in the woodland.
There is a spot. The Gino spot, named as such due to graffiti on the wall.
The top part of the wall here is broken - the top stones missing.
This is a high wall in parts - some 6-8ft in difference, along it's length.
Picture in your minds - an estate land/castle.
The type of old stone dyke, thick and high.
This is the type of wall - aptly named Roansdyke.
When this search party reach this Gino spot -
Luke climbs up onto this wall, he shines his torch into the woodland.
Why?
Does he claim his dog is reacting at this point, and if so why not go into the woodland, to see
what his dog may be reacting to?
He doesn't of course. He just takes the notion - to look over this high wall and into the woods.
They continue down this path.
They reach a break in the wall. The famous V.
Remember here - Luke's claims of never noticing this V until that evening.
So by Luke's account, they walk passed this V some considerable distance.
Only 3 of them, he states that AW had falling some way behind.
That his dog started, only then acting franticly, bounding over to this wall, paws up air sniffing.
That he backtracked to this V, that he hadn't looked over previously, why would he, he didn't even know
it existed?
He still backtracked to it though, by his account.
That JaJ and Kelly, continued to walk down this path, that by the time he got to this V, AW had just reached it.
That he handed the lead to her and climbed over.
That he immediately turned left - as the dog had reacted down to the left of this V. (some 40ft down)
That he walked along a narrow passage, on the inside of this wall in the dark.
That he had walked a certain distance when he saw something.
That he shouted out.
That Kelly then came over the V.
That AW then came over the V.
That this call to 999 was made at 11.34pm.

19mins:

Ms Lean is somewhat under generous here in her estimation of 2mins each.

Quote
I know the timings section of the book is very confusing, but the 11.18 call is disputed, both in where the search trio was when it was answered and what was said in the call. In short, the walk from the junction of the paths to the V point at a "brisk pace" in daylight was timed at 7 minutes. Allowing a couple of minutes extra for the discussion when the trio met with Luke at the junction of the path (no more than 2 minutes, according to the statements) and another couple of minutes for the slower walk in the darkness (all of the statements referred to the slow pace), the return journey down the path required at least 11 minutes. If the trio were in the "complex" at 11.18, they would not have reached the junction of the paths until 11.23 - add the 11 minutes required to get to the V point and the time is 11.34 - almost the exact time Luke called 999 the first time. But there's no time for the three members of the search party climbing over the wall, one at a time, finding Jodi, getting back to the V point and climbing back over etc. Even allowing 2 minutes each (and all of the searchers spoke of the struggle AW had getting over the wall, so it's likely to be more than that), the first 999 call would have to be around 11.40pm, based on these timings (which are, in turn, based on the search trio's own statements). That's after the police call back to Luke. There's a lot to take in about this aspect of the case - might be better as a stand alone question!


The search trio are some 40ft passed this V according to Luke.
That he has to backtrack to this V to climb over.
Kelly and JaJ would be some 60ft plus passed by now.
That after he climbs over, he surely takes his time, walking down this narrow passage,
in the dark, on the inside of a wall, in part of a woodland, he claimed never to have been before.
Kelly and JaJ still walking, whilst Luke is walking on unfamiliar ground, in the woods.
Are Kelly and JaJ now some 80+ft passed this V.
They rush back.
Kelly goes over, Luke shows him.
The gran goes over, she is helped, by who?
That call has been made.

By the above account - does this show us instantly - that there was no walking, some distance passed this V, at all.
That they simply reached this V, Luke went over and within seconds, he shouted he had found something.

So there we have it.
A girl who was left hidden by her killer.
Was found in the space of minutes by her boyfriend.
In the dark, in unfamiliar territory.
Luke didn't follow the 'normal' path on the woodside.
Why?
How did he know, that the dog was reacting to something, directly behind this wall?
How in the space of mere minutes -
Did this partially trained dog - not only manage to sense this girl - but its trainer knew this to be
directly behind this wall.
That within seconds of going over this V, he did not deliberate in this unfamiliar woodland.
He made his way, easily down this narrow gap, to the exact location.
That he most definitely did not follow the clear footpath in front.
To try and determine, to see what this dog may have been reacting to.
Instead - he easily made his way, down the inside of this wall.
Not only that, he had only managed to walk some 10-15ft when he shouted he had found something.
That this something lay behind a large Oak tree - with a red hairband.




So, plain and basic - that the reality is, that in less than 15mins (Luke's timings) of this search trio, actively searching together.
This girl was found where she had lay hidden, that evening. And the emergency services were phoned.
Hidden by the person who killed her.
She was not discovered.
In daylight, by dog walkers, by anyone who may have been in this woodland.
It Is not to say that a dog may not have been alerted - a dog running around in these woods. (not the path)
A dog that may have simply been shouted back by its master.
Why? because this girl was hidden off any beaten track - any usual walkway.
Unless It was a stubborn dog, that paid no heed to it's master - then and only then, may someone,
have looked for access through this woodland - to this hidden spot. But that's all IF's.
This access was easily and instantly found by Luke - who claimed not to know of this V, to have never
been in this woodland.  Yet easily located this access in the dark, both the V and the narrow passageway.
That he knew instantly that his dog - was reacting to something, directly behind this wall - not into the woodland itself.
Not just an expertly, partially trained dog - but amazing skills also by it's handler.
 
Remember here also - Ms Leans claims of how hard this V was to locate, in daylight, whilst actively searching for it.
Yet we have this easy spotting in the dark, noticed whilst walking passed it.
We have this car from the Beeches - claiming to see this bike, near to this V.
You can't see the wall from the Beeches - far less the V break in it.

Offline nugnug

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2019, 12:01:AM »
how do you know I happened in 44 minutes.

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2019, 02:13:PM »
44mins:

One can theorize away about what took place in that 44mins - one thing that can not be changed.
That is the time frame - from this girl being reported missing to the police until that 999 call to say -
Something had been found at 11.34pm

Let us for this - go on Luke's timings, presuming them to be accurate to meeting with this search trio.

These timings of course - adding extra time onto the reality.
10.50pm Judith calls the police.
She does this, immediately after coming off the phone to Luke at 10.49pm.
In this call. Luke claims that Judith informed him, that she was going to be calling the police.
In this call, there is a claim of  a discussion - that this discussion was about meeting at Judith's.
That this meeting at Judith's was to go through some friends phone numbers, and to organise a search.
That Luke had offered to help search for Jodi, and to go through some numbers, of friends to phone.
That he came off the phone and had a discussion with his mother.
That he told his mother of this search. of going to Judith's. of looking through friends phone numbers, that he had.
That his mother had said "not at this time of night laddie, you're not"
That he was having none of this, it was not up for further discussion.
That he went upstairs and asked to borrow Shane's torch - filling his brother in also, as to the reasons why.
That Shane went downstairs, located the torch, gave it to Luke and returned upstairs.
That he got himself and the dog ready, lead on and left his house.
That whilst starting his walk on this path, he received a further call from Judith.
He informed Judith that he was on this path, with his dog.
 
SL:"


The times of this were as follows.
That after that call at 10.49pm he had these conversations with both his mother and brother,
of getting the torch, getting ready and out the door at 10.52pm.
That he was on this path at 10.59pm when he received the call from Judith.
The one in which he informs her - he is on the path with his dog.
That he hurried up this path - shining his torch on it, he did not see Jodi whilst doing so.
That he hurried up this path - as he wanted to get to Judith's as quickly as possible.
CM makes this point clearly in her podcast, of how fit and fast - both Luke and the dog were.
As does Ms Lean:





That whilst he was approaching the top end of this path he saw torchlight.
That this was from AW. JaJ and SK.
That they met, that he let them know that he hadn't really looked on the way up, but did not
see Jodi lying on this path.
That if they had anything of Jodi's, he could use this to allow his dog to scent.
That the purpose of this meet was to look/search for Jodi.
That he had not searched, he had not used his dog, that they then decided to
all search this path together.

Back to Luke's arrival on this path at 10.59pm.
We are told it takes 7mins at a brisk pace to walk from the junction of the path to the V point.

We know that the V point is much closer to the Newbattle end of this path.
Surely this would take no more than 3mins at Luke's pace.
Let us add on another 5mins - the time now is 11.14pm.
The reality of course by Luke's speed, should really be nearer to 11.10pm.

For all of this, at this point and this post - I'm going to skip the reality of timings by the search trio.
We are going here, solely on Luke's account of seeing this search trio - near the top of this path -
between 11.10pm and 11.14pm.
Take some time off for the conversation and we are now under 20mins.
In under 20mins of this search trio being together that call to 999 is made of something being found.

What we do know for sure is this.

That this search trio were looking in different places.
In the field, on the path, in the undergrowth on the path side of the wall, and in the woodland.
There is a spot. The Gino spot, named as such due to graffiti on the wall.
The top part of the wall here is broken - the top stones missing.
This is a high wall in parts - some 6-8ft in difference, along it's length.
Picture in your minds - an estate land/castle.
The type of old stone dyke, thick and high.
This is the type of wall - aptly named Roansdyke.
When this search party reach this Gino spot -
Luke climbs up onto this wall, he shines his torch into the woodland.
Why?
Does he claim his dog is reacting at this point, and if so why not go into the woodland, to see
what his dog may be reacting to?
He doesn't of course. He just takes the notion - to look over this high wall and into the woods.
They continue down this path.
They reach a break in the wall. The famous V.
Remember here - Luke's claims of never noticing this V until that evening.
So by Luke's account, they walk passed this V some considerable distance.
Only 3 of them, he states that AW had falling some way behind.
That his dog started, only then acting franticly, bounding over to this wall, paws up air sniffing.
That he backtracked to this V, that he hadn't looked over previously, why would he, he didn't even know
it existed?
He still backtracked to it though, by his account.
That JaJ and Kelly, continued to walk down this path, that by the time he got to this V, AW had just reached it.
That he handed the lead to her and climbed over.
That he immediately turned left - as the dog had reacted down to the left of this V. (some 40ft down)
That he walked along a narrow passage, on the inside of this wall in the dark.
That he had walked a certain distance when he saw something.
That he shouted out.
That Kelly then came over the V.
That AW then came over the V.
That this call to 999 was made at 11.34pm.

19mins:

Ms Lean is somewhat under generous here in her estimation of 2mins each.


The search trio are some 40ft passed this V according to Luke.
That he has to backtrack to this V to climb over.
Kelly and JaJ would be some 60ft plus passed by now.
That after he climbs over, he surely takes his time, walking down this narrow passage,
in the dark, on the inside of a wall, in part of a woodland, he claimed never to have been before.
Kelly and JaJ still walking, whilst Luke is walking on unfamiliar ground, in the woods.
Are Kelly and JaJ now some 80+ft passed this V.
They rush back.
Kelly goes over, Luke shows him.
The gran goes over, she is helped, by who?
That call has been made.

By the above account - does this show us instantly - that there was no walking, some distance passed this V, at all.
That they simply reached this V, Luke went over and within seconds, he shouted he had found something.

So there we have it.
A girl who was left hidden by her killer.
Was found in the space of minutes by her boyfriend.
In the dark, in unfamiliar territory.
Luke didn't follow the 'normal' path on the woodside.
Why?
How did he know, that the dog was reacting to something, directly behind this wall?
How in the space of mere minutes -
Did this partially trained dog - not only manage to sense this girl - but its trainer knew this to be
directly behind this wall.
That within seconds of going over this V, he did not deliberate in this unfamiliar woodland.
He made his way, easily down this narrow gap, to the exact location.
That he most definitely did not follow the clear footpath in front.
To try and determine, to see what this dog may have been reacting to.
Instead - he easily made his way, down the inside of this wall.
Not only that, he had only managed to walk some 10-15ft when he shouted he had found something.
That this something lay behind a large Oak tree - with a red hairband.




So, plain and basic - that the reality is, that in less than 15mins (Luke's timings) of this search trio, actively searching together.
This girl was found where she had lay hidden, that evening. And the emergency services were phoned.
Hidden by the person who killed her.
She was not discovered.
In daylight, by dog walkers, by anyone who may have been in this woodland.
It Is not to say that a dog may not have been alerted - a dog running around in these woods. (not the path)
A dog that may have simply been shouted back by its master.
Why? because this girl was hidden off any beaten track - any usual walkway.
Unless It was a stubborn dog, that paid no heed to it's master - then and only then, may someone,
have looked for access through this woodland - to this hidden spot. But that's all IF's.
This access was easily and instantly found by Luke - who claimed not to know of this V, to have never
been in this woodland.  Yet easily located this access in the dark, both the V and the narrow passageway.
That he knew instantly that his dog - was reacting to something, directly behind this wall - not into the woodland itself.
Not just an expertly, partially trained dog - but amazing skills also by it's handler.
 
Remember here also - Ms Leans claims of how hard this V was to locate, in daylight, whilst actively searching for it.
Yet we have this easy spotting in the dark, noticed whilst walking passed it.
We have this car from the Beeches - claiming to see this bike, near to this V.
You can't see the wall from the Beeches - far less the V break in it.

What are you trying to say? this post is way too long.

Offline sandra L

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2019, 03:01:PM »
The posts says, in a nutshell, Luke didn't pass the V but went straight to it. The "reasoning" for this conclusion is flawed and the post contains a number of inaccuracies or errors.

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2019, 05:31:PM »
The posts says, in a nutshell, Luke didn't pass the V but went straight to it. The "reasoning" for this conclusion is flawed and the post contains a number of inaccuracies or errors.

Thanks. I didn’t bother reading it as it probably would have taken 44 minutes to read and get my head round it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 05:42:PM by David1819 »

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2019, 09:20:PM »
Sandra.

How comes the full trial transcript Al Megrahi is on the internet, if that stuff is not allowed to be published?

Offline sandra L

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2019, 10:01:PM »
A "special court" was convened for the Megrahi trial - there were no jurors, it was the judges who decided whether they thought he was guilty or not guilty.

The law covering what can and can't be released in Luke's case is complex and comes down to "ownership" of the case papers and who is considered to be a "third party" - one mistake and I could find myself inadvertently breaking the law.

Technically, trial transcripts are a matter of public record and should, therefore, be able to be published, but that still wouldn't help in Luke's case because I still couldn't publish original statements, etc, so it would still provide only a partial picture

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2019, 10:23:PM »
A "special court" was convened for the Megrahi trial - there were no jurors, it was the judges who decided whether they thought he was guilty or not guilty.

The law covering what can and can't be released in Luke's case is complex and comes down to "ownership" of the case papers and who is considered to be a "third party" - one mistake and I could find myself inadvertently breaking the law.

Technically, trial transcripts are a matter of public record and should, therefore, be able to be published, but that still wouldn't help in Luke's case because I still couldn't publish original statements, etc, so it would still provide only a partial picture

Any discrepancies in statements should have been addressed in cross examination. A partial picture is better than no picture at all.

Offline sandra L

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2019, 07:38:AM »
Any discrepancies in statements should have been addressed in cross examination. A partial picture is better than no picture at all.

Tell that to every wrongly convicted, exonerated person ever!

A partial picture is all that's been available in this case for over 16 years - how much good has that done? You seem to put a lot of faith in official process, David - it's a well recorded fact that official process is a large part of all wrongful convictions.

I've said this before, but for absolute clarity, CPS stands for Crown Prosecution Service - there's a clue right there in the name! It's not the Crown Prosecution and Defence Service, or the Crown Fair Trial Service!! The defence can only cross-examine on (a) what the prosecution brings as "relevant" to the case and (b) what it (the defence) knows about.

How, for example, can the defence  address discrepancies it knows nothing about because the information has never been released to them?

I've already been heavily criticised for posting excerpts from documents ( a risk to me in itself) - I'm not about to walk into a situation where I post say one or two documents that I think I can post in full and have instant demands to post "everything."

And before anyone quotes cases in England and Wales, this is Scotland, the rules are different.

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2019, 11:34:AM »
I've said this before, but for absolute clarity, CPS stands for Crown Prosecution Service - there's a clue right there in the name! It's not the Crown Prosecution and Defence Service, or the Crown Fair Trial Service!! The defence can only cross-examine on (a) what the prosecution brings as "relevant" to the case and (b) what it (the defence) knows about.

What civilised society does not have an institution to prosecute those who have done wrong? Take that away and you would end up with public lynching.

The defence service/Fair Trial Service is known as legal aid. Which Luke received almost half a million pounds from.

The only way to overturn a conviction is either - provide fresh evidence that if presented at trial could have resulted in a different verdict. Or technical errors such as the judge instructing the jury with wrong information.

So seeing what the Jury heard is of vial importance. Even if they did not get the full picture.


Offline sandra L

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2019, 07:29:AM »
What civilised society does not have an institution to prosecute those who have done wrong? Take that away and you would end up with public lynching.

I didn't say take it away. I said recognise its limitations. Its aim is to win a "contest" in which it controls all the rules, including how to lay out the "battlefield" in a way that is least advantageous to its opponent. The pertinent point is to prosecute those who have done wrong. What happened to the right to the presumption of innocence? Is the CPS's job to prosecute those who have done wrong, (remember the name) or to oversee an arena in which evidence is tested to discover whether someone has done anything wrong or not? It can't be both.

Quote
The defence service/Fair Trial Service is known as legal aid. Which Luke received almost half a million pounds from.

The imbalance between funds and resources available to the defence and those available to the prosecution is enormous and well documented. The defence is not even entitled to see everything the prosecution holds - in what was is that balanced or fair?  Your previous point was that "Any discrepancies in statements should have been addressed in cross examination" - lack of funding, judges directions and any number of factors can prevent a QC being able to adequately cross examine a witness (or even, to be able to call or cross examine a witness at all). You did not answer my point about how the defence can address that which was not released to it.

Luke did not receive a single penny. The Legal Aid funding went to his legal team who initially had just under 16 weeks to construct a defence against a case the prosecution had had 9.5 months to prepare.


Quote
The only way to overturn a conviction is either - provide fresh evidence that if presented at trial could have resulted in a different verdict. Or technical errors such as the judge instructing the jury with wrong information.

Why do you include this here? Most posters know what is required to overturn a conviction - having documents online isn't going to alter or affect that.

Quote
So seeing what the Jury heard is of vial importance. Even if they did not get the full picture.

Why is that so? If posters only get to read what jurors heard and we know that is already compromised, both by the system itself and by failings in that system, what is it that is of vital importance that posters on an internet forum should see?

Any society calling itself civilised would strive to recognise the potential failings in its institutions and provide the means (if not the funds) to address those. The fundraiser, for example, did not ask the state to pay for re-examination of the evidence - this was members of the public willing to pay, from their own pockets, to see just such a review carried out in order to hold public institutions accountable. What "civilsed society" would block such an attempt?

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2019, 10:02:AM »
I didn't say take it away. I said recognise its limitations. Its aim is to win a "contest" in which it controls all the rules, including how to lay out the "battlefield" in a way that is least advantageous to its opponent.

CPS does not control the rules in the "battlefield". The CPS and defence counsel are two players in a game with the Judge being the referee making sure the laws are followed.

Is the CPS's job to prosecute those who have done wrong, (remember the name) or to oversee an arena in which evidence is tested to discover whether someone has done anything wrong or not? It can't be both.

Its the CPS's job to prosecute those who have done wrong. If they bring an innocent person to a preliminary hearing then they are not doing their job properly. But the world is not perfect.

The imbalance between funds and resources available to the defence and those available to the prosecution is enormous and well documented. The defence is not even entitled to see everything the prosecution holds - in what was is that balanced or fair? 

The defence is entitled to see everything. If they are not then that is prosecutorial misconduct.

Why is that so? If posters only get to read what jurors heard and we know that is already compromised, both by the system itself and by failings in that system, what is it that is of vital importance that posters on an internet forum should see?

Who's we? You claim its "compromised" but that's merely your conclusion. And you could very well be wrong.

The irony here is you are doing exactly what you accuse the CPS of doing. You put forward a narrative to people here, but don't disclose enough (if anything) to allow people to challenge the claims or offer any constructive criticisms of their own.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 10:04:AM by David1819 »

Offline sandra L

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 02:13:PM »
Quote
The defence is entitled to see everything. If they are not then that is prosecutorial misconduct.

Not in the UK

Offline David1819

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 02:29:PM »
Not in the UK

"The prosecutor must—

(a)disclose to the accused any prosecution material which has not previously been disclosed to the accused and which might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the case for the prosecution against the accused"


That applies to all the UK.

Online ngb1066

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Re: 44 Minutes.
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 03:03:PM »
"The prosecutor must—

(a)disclose to the accused any prosecution material which has not previously been disclosed to the accused and which might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the case for the prosecution against the accused"


That applies to all the UK.

Yes but it is not all of the material which has to be disclosed.