Author Topic: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings  (Read 742 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2019, 07:11:PM »
True, just in case you werent aware. FWIW i dont think thers any relevance in the manson / dahlia stuff anyway.

That would mean the killer unwittingly imitated the paintings not long after Manson released them. And killed someone who's social circle happened to be into Manson's music.

Not very plausible in my opinion.

The fact Jodi was found naked and face up, indicates the killer wanted the scene to appear that way. Otherwise why bother?

This was not a rape or sex attack so why take all the victims clothes off then cut the breasts and stomach? (Just like in the paintings?)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 07:14:PM by David1819 »

Offline nugnug

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2019, 07:17:PM »
That would mean the killer unwittingly imitated the paintings not long after Manson released them. And killed someone who's social circle happened to be into Manson's music.

Not very plausible in my opinion.

The fact Jodi was found naked and face up, indicates the killer wanted the scene to appear that way. Otherwise why bother?

This was not a rape or sex attack so why take all the victims clothes off then cut the breasts and stomach? (Just like in the paintings?)


can you provide one peice of evdence that her socail scene were in to mansons music.

Offline sandra L

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2019, 07:33:AM »
That would mean the killer unwittingly imitated the paintings not long after Manson released them. And killed someone who's social circle happened to be into Manson's music.

Not very plausible in my opinion.

Except that any "imitation" was superficial according to the pathologist and the injuries were not the same. As for music and social circles, according to your theory, any reckless biker who crashed his bike at speed in October 1977 (sadly, I knew one) could be said to have imitated Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell because some of his social circle happened to be into Meatloaf. Not very plausible in my opinion.

Quote
The fact Jodi was found naked and face up, indicates the killer wanted the scene to appear that way. Otherwise why bother?

Wrong! The position Jodi was found in bore no resemblance whatsoever to how Elizabeth Short was found. Arms different, legs different, head position different. And definitely not "face up" in the same sense Elizabeth Short was "face up". If this was an attempt to replicate the Dahlia scene, I'd have expected, at the very least, the most obvious part of the laying out of the body (the "sexually provocative pose" as it's been described)  to have been copied, since it was (a) clearly intended by the killer to have the most impact and (b) the easiest part of all to copy.

Why, if the killer was intent on copying the Dahlia paintings, go to the bother of tying Jodi's hands behind her back with her own trousers?

Quote
This was not a rape or sex attack so why take all the victims clothes off then cut the breasts and stomach? (Just like in the paintings?)

Wrong again. We don't know that it wasn't a sexually motivated attack. One breast was cut in Jodi's case, an entire breast was removed in the Dahlia case. Elizabeth short was cut in half - the wounds to Jodi's torso can, in no way, be said to be an attempt to replicate that - the position and direction of the wounds counts it out as a possibility.

Why take all the victim's clothes of if it wasn't, at the very least, a sexually motivated attack? Why bother?

Offline David1819

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2019, 10:18:AM »
Except that any "imitation" was superficial according to the pathologist and the injuries were not the same. As for music and social circles, according to your theory, any reckless biker who crashed his bike at speed in October 1977 (sadly, I knew one) could be said to have imitated Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell because some of his social circle happened to be into Meatloaf. Not very plausible in my opinion.

Wrong! The position Jodi was found in bore no resemblance whatsoever to how Elizabeth Short was found. Arms different, legs different, head position different. And definitely not "face up" in the same sense Elizabeth Short was "face up". If this was an attempt to replicate the Dahlia scene, I'd have expected, at the very least, the most obvious part of the laying out of the body (the "sexually provocative pose" as it's been described)  to have been copied, since it was (a) clearly intended by the killer to have the most impact and (b) the easiest part of all to copy.

Why, if the killer was intent on copying the Dahlia paintings, go to the bother of tying Jodi's hands behind her back with her own trousers?

Wrong again. We don't know that it wasn't a sexually motivated attack. One breast was cut in Jodi's case, an entire breast was removed in the Dahlia case. Elizabeth short was cut in half - the wounds to Jodi's torso can, in no way, be said to be an attempt to replicate that - the position and direction of the wounds counts it out as a possibility.

Why take all the victim's clothes of if it wasn't, at the very least, a sexually motivated attack? Why bother?

Once again you are using the same strawman argument. Its never been claimed the crime is similar to Elizabeth Short. The argument is that the crime resembles Manson's paintings.

Any aspects of the crime in contrast to Manson's paintings do not negate the similarities. If someone is inspired by something and manifest that in their own actions its not going to produce an exact replica.

Like this for example. There are differences but you can tell its the same song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBg4gxINZk


As for the body being cut in two. I have already pointed out that the killer didn't have the means to cut the body in two, even if they wanted to go that far.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2019, 12:51:PM »
Once again you are using the same strawman argument. Its never been claimed the crime is similar to Elizabeth Short. The argument is that the crime resembles Manson's paintings.

Any aspects of the crime in contrast to Manson's paintings do not negate the similarities. If someone is inspired by something and manifest that in their own actions its not going to produce an exact replica.

Like this for example. There are differences but you can tell its the same song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBg4gxINZk


As for the body being cut in two. I have already pointed out that the killer didn't have the means to cut the body in two, even if they wanted to go that far.

the painting that luke hadent seen before the murder

Offline sandra L

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2019, 03:42:PM »
Quote
Once again you are using the same strawman argument. Its never been claimed the crime is similar to Elizabeth Short. The argument is that the crime resembles Manson's paintings.

Do the paintings, in all the important aspects, reproduce the injuries to Elizabeth short? Are they "similar" and if so, how similar?

If the paintings are "very similar" (in all the important aspects) to Elizabeth Short, then the crime (Jodi's murder) is being claimed to be similar to both the paintings and the actual ES scene - unless you're now going to argue that the paintings are wildly inaccurate and nothing like the Dahlia murder?

You're splitting hairs, David.

Do the paintings show the body as it was laid out? Yes, they do. Is that an accurate representation of how ES was found? Yes, it is. Do the paintings accurately reflect the injuries to ES? Yes they do.

Your previous argument was that Jodi's body was left "face up" - just like the paintings and that the injuries and removal of clothing were "just like the paintings."

You're wrong on all counts, whether we're talking about the paintings or the actual ES scene. ES (and the paintings) did not have socks left on, folded down over the toes. There is a very obvious injury to the thigh in both the real ES scene and the Manson paintings which is not present on Jodi. There is a very obvious stomach wound below the waist in the Manson paintings and the ES scene which was not replicated on Jodi. The paintings do not depict cut-throat injuries of any description. They do not depict arm injuries in any way similar to Jodi's. The paintings do not depict mutilations to the eyes, but they do depict injuries to the nose not present on Jodi.

And as nugnug pointed out, all of this is entirely irrelevant, because there is not a scrap of evidence to suggest Luke ever saw those paintings before the murder.

Offline David1819

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2019, 05:53:PM »
And as nugnug pointed out, all of this is entirely irrelevant, because there is not a scrap of evidence to suggest Luke ever saw those paintings before the murder.

Evidence points to Luke being the perpetrator. That is in itself evidence Luke saw those paintings. If the crime does indeed resemble the paintings.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2019, 06:01:PM »
Evidence points to Luke being the perpetrator. That is in itself evidence Luke saw those paintings. If the crime does indeed resemble the paintings.

so can you explian how he saw those pinting as he dident own a manson cd until after the murder.

and if hasnt seen the paintings how can he be influenced by painting he hasnt seen.

Offline David1819

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2019, 08:26:PM »

Do the paintings show the body as it was laid out? Yes, they do. Is that an accurate representation of how ES was found? Yes, it is. Do the paintings accurately reflect the injuries to ES? Yes they do.

For starters the arms are in a different position. Plus Manson seems to have made the mouth wound a lot larger.







Offline nugnug

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2019, 09:25:PM »
For starters the arms are in a different position. Plus Manson seems to have made the mouth wound a lot larger.





that just proves hes shit at drawing nothing else.

hes clearly atempting to draw the black dalia murder.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2019, 09:57:PM »
Just so you know, these pictures are available to everyone - guests included.

Offline marty

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #86 on: November 01, 2019, 08:17:AM »
Completely pointless arguement as hes never looked at the paintings or the police would have found some sort of evidence.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2019, 07:29:PM »
Completely pointless arguement as hes never looked at the paintings or the police would have found some sort of evidence.
[/quote


and theyfound abslutly none.

Offline sandra L

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Re: Manson's Black Dhalia Paintings
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2019, 08:58:PM »
And, just to drive home the point, Jodi's injuries and the position in which she was found resemble neither the paintings nor the ES crime scene.

So, no evidence Luke ever saw the paintings (or knew anything about them), no evidence Luke ever saw the ES crime scene photographs (or knew anything about them), crime scene for Jodi does not resemble paintings or ES crime scene, Jodi's injuries are significantly different to ES injuries and somehow an argument is still being attempted that Luke, as Jodi's murderer,  "tried to emulate" the paintings - I suspect the concept of "evidence" (never mind corroborative evidence) has been lost on some!