Author Topic: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?  (Read 39122 times)

0 Members and 21 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #930 on: November 09, 2019, 09:37:AM »
Jeremy Bamber is not a stupid individual. If he had used that gun with a silencer. That silencer would have not even come into contention. Because he would have disposed of it. I find it very difficult at the same time to believe the police couldn't visualize from the outset of seeing shelia that she had been shot twice and not immediately become suspicious of Bamber. Thirdly, as you rightly point out how did Jeremy Bamber manage to position Shelia caffell to undertake the two shot scenario. Even if she had been incapacitated by one shot. She would have been fighting like a wildcat. Jeremy Bamber had no marks on him. It beggars belief

It's very easy to say what we think happened from a physical distance of 30+ years and a psychological distance which is incalculable. Jeremy certainly wasn't stupid, but because, it's a reasonable assumption, I'm willing to bet that, at that moment, the first shot having failed to kill her, he was completely thrown. What he may have done, had it been successful, would have been blown out of the water. It came down to plan B, but he probably hadn't planned a plan B.

Re the police and their reaction to the two shots. They probably didn't react at the time -but it may, or not, be of interest to you, that my friend's late husband interviewed Jeremy at his cottage later that day and was in no doubt about his guilt. I doubt he was the only one- because generally, we believe those 'facts' we're tutored to believe.

Why do you appear to think Jeremy positioned Sheila for "a two shot scenario". Whilst two shot suicides are possible, they're certainly not usual. As for her "fighting like a wild cat"? Perhaps you should read what effects her injected medication was having on her. I'm not certain how you come to the conclusion that Jeremy had no marks on him. Whilst clothing could protect from most, there's the possibility that there were some which weren't visible.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #931 on: November 09, 2019, 09:45:AM »
But why would she just let him position her? Even if she did, he couldn't possibly have known that she would just let him do what he wanted when he planned it all.

If it had been a handgun I could have understood it, but it wasn't.

Well, naturally, neither you nor I would allow it without struggle, but neither of us are Sheila. My contention has always been that she was depressed -that's apart from the debilitating effects of her meds- and it's not impossible that she simply gave up. Depression is like a trough. At the bottom, the depressive lacks the mental energy required to kill themselves or anyone else. Sheila appears to have been close to that point. Who's to say Jeremy didn't tell her that she'd get the blame for it, anyway?

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #932 on: November 09, 2019, 10:05:AM »
Well, naturally, neither you nor I would allow it without struggle, but neither of us are Sheila. My contention has always been that she was depressed -that's apart from the debilitating effects of her meds- and it's not impossible that she simply gave up. Depression is like a trough. At the bottom, the depressive lacks the mental energy required to kill themselves or anyone else. Sheila appears to have been close to that point. Who's to say Jeremy didn't tell her that she'd get the blame for it, anyway?

That is all possible, but Jeremy couldn't possibly have known that she would give up or that she wouldn't fight him. Remember he'd allegedly been planning this for a long time. It was just too risky.

Offline ilovebooze

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #933 on: November 09, 2019, 10:10:AM »
It's very easy to say what we think happened from a physical distance of 30+ years and a psychological distance which is incalculable. Jeremy certainly wasn't stupid, but because, it's a reasonable assumption, I'm willing to bet that, at that moment, the first shot having failed to kill her, he was completely thrown. What he may have done, had it been successful, would have been blown out of the water. It came down to plan B, but he probably hadn't planned a plan B.

Re the police and their reaction to the two shots. They probably didn't react at the time -but it may, or not, be of interest to you, that my friend's late husband interviewed Jeremy at his cottage later that day and was in no doubt about his guilt. I doubt he was the only one- because generally, we believe those 'facts' we're tutored to believe.

Why do you appear to think Jeremy positioned Sheila for "a two shot scenario". Whilst two shot suicides are possible, they're certainly not usual. As for her "fighting like a wild cat"? Perhaps you should read what effects her injected medication was having on her. I'm not certain how you come to the conclusion that Jeremy had no marks on him. Whilst clothing could protect from most, there's the possibility that there were some which weren't visible.
it's just my opinion. But even let's say Shelia was heavily medicated and Jeremy was trying to position her to kill her. Even if she was overpowered. She would have put up some sort of fight or resistance. Whether it be clawing. Kicking, biting or whatever. I also believe that she would have marked his face. As that's a logical place to strike back when your under attack. As far as I'm aware Jeremy Bamber did not possess any visible marks or bruises on his face when in contact with the police at the first stage 7.8.85?? And I don't recall any officer making a remark or a statement to visualising any facial injury to him. Again it's speculation. But it's a viable scenario

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #934 on: November 09, 2019, 10:12:AM »
That is all possible, but Jeremy couldn't possibly have known that she would give up or that she wouldn't fight him. Remember he'd allegedly been planning this for a long time. It was just too risky.

You're right. He couldn't. None of us can 100% control what another does when they still have a window of choice, however small, but if he wanted it to appear that she'd committed suicide, what were HIS alternatives?

Offline ilovebooze

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #935 on: November 09, 2019, 10:14:AM »
That is all possible, but Jeremy couldn't possibly have known that she would give up or that she wouldn't fight him. Remember he'd allegedly been planning this for a long time. It was just too risky.
I believe she would have definately fought. It's a natural human reaction. Even if heavily medicated. I find it surprising that Bamber didn't have an injury upon him ( face region) for an officer to prompt the question " how did you do that "

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #936 on: November 09, 2019, 10:21:AM »
You're right. He couldn't. None of us can 100% control what another does when they still have a window of choice, however small, but if he wanted it to appear that she'd committed suicide, what were HIS alternatives?

As I said, to shoot her first in bed before she knew what was happening, and then position the bed sheets and the gun afterwards.

This big plan of his depended solely on being able to shoot Sheila without her putting up a struggle, and he simply could not have planned for that unless she was asleep at the time.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #937 on: November 09, 2019, 10:23:AM »
it's just my opinion. But even let's say Shelia was heavily medicated and Jeremy was trying to position her to kill her. Even if she was overpowered. She would have put up some sort of fight or resistance. Whether it be clawing. Kicking, biting or whatever. I also believe that she would have marked his face. As that's a logical place to strike back when your under attack. As far as I'm aware Jeremy Bamber did not possess any visible marks or bruises on his face when in contact with the police at the first stage 7.8.85?? And I don't recall any officer making a remark or a statement to visualising any facial injury to him. Again it's speculation. But it's a viable scenario

By all accounts -but one- of Sheila's behaviours, that day, she was totally devoid of resistance or fight. Any last remaining vestige of it COULD have been dispelled by Jeremy telling her that she was going to be blamed for the massacre because it could never be proved he'd been there -you could strip this down to be less credible but you haven't got a gun pointing at you, and speaking of guns being pointed at you, my guess is that Sheila wasn't allowed to get anywhere near his face. He let the gun give the instructions, which makes correct your observation re his lack of facial marks.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #938 on: November 09, 2019, 10:29:AM »
As I said, to shoot her first in bed before she knew what was happening, and then position the bed sheets and the gun afterwards.

This big plan of his depended solely on being able to shoot Sheila without her putting up a struggle, and he simply could not have planned for that unless she was asleep at the time.

 You're thinking with Kaldin's mind, rather than with Jeremy's. It was a "family" thing, the suggestion being that she'd lost it because her parents were threatening to take her children away. Much easier to emphasize this is to place her "en famille".

Offline ilovebooze

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 842
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #939 on: November 09, 2019, 10:29:AM »
By all accounts -but one- of Sheila's behaviours, that day, she was totally devoid of resistance or fight. Any last remaining vestige of it COULD have been dispelled by Jeremy telling her that she was going to be blamed for the massacre because it could never be proved he'd been there -you could strip this down to be less credible but you haven't got a gun pointing at you, and speaking of guns being pointed at you, my guess is that Sheila wasn't allowed to get anywhere near his face. He let the gun give the instructions, which makes correct your observation re his lack of facial marks.
if the gun was giving all the instructions and Jeremy had total control. Why two shots? If she was so resistant and terrified of what he had said and was totally under his control he would have been able to shoot her where he wanted and in so for which ensured the first shot was near enough fatal. I believe that two shots indicates that there would have been a struggle.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #940 on: November 09, 2019, 10:31:AM »
I believe she would have definately fought. It's a natural human reaction. Even if heavily medicated. I find it surprising that Bamber didn't have an injury upon him ( face region) for an officer to prompt the question " how did you do that "

You sound as if you're trying to write a script that you find acceptable?

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #941 on: November 09, 2019, 10:31:AM »
You're thinking with Kaldin's mind, rather than with Jeremy's. It was a "family" thing, the suggestion being that she'd lost it because her parents were threatening to take her children away. Much easier to emphasize this is to place her "en famille".

I'm thinking with anyone's mind. I just don't think he could count on her being quiet enough to let him shoot her in the neck. Perhaps in his mind it didn't occur to him that she would fight, but he'd have to be pretty stupid not to consider that.

I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, I'm saying that nobody in their right mind would rely on someone not fighting back.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #942 on: November 09, 2019, 10:35:AM »
if the gun was giving all the instructions and Jeremy had total control. Why two shots? If she was so resistant and terrified of what he had said and was totally under his control he would have been able to shoot her where he wanted and in so for which ensured the first shot was near enough fatal. I believe that two shots indicates that there would have been a struggle.

You clearly haven't read what I said. I reiterate. It's not possible to have 100% control of another person whilst the still have a window, however small, of personal choice. Moving, at that particular moment, MAY have been the last choice Sheila got to make. Without it, it's likely Jeremy would have been home and dry.

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #943 on: November 09, 2019, 10:38:AM »
I don't read anything into there being two shots. Jeremy may well have thought that he had the right position - after all, it wasn't far off. What happened then though? Was she awake and groaning? There had to be a reason for him to shoot her again immediately rather than wait to see if she would die.


Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 30002
Re: Jeremy Bamber proven innocent?
« Reply #944 on: November 09, 2019, 10:59:AM »
I don't read anything into there being two shots. Jeremy may well have thought that he had the right position - after all, it wasn't far off. What happened then though? Was she awake and groaning? There had to be a reason for him to shoot her again immediately rather than wait to see if she would die.

I find that strange. I'm perfectly convinced that it wasn't part of the plan. I'm equally convinced that it didn't occur to him that he MIGHT have to shoot her twice. No, it wasn't FAR off but a miss, however near, is always as good as a mile. He MAY have experienced a moment of real panic. He couldn't have known, that it would become fatal, just not immediately so. But how long is a piece of string. In that moment, might he have envisaged her getting to a phone and raising the alarm? Might he have seen her making a full recovery? I doubt that even he could have stood by watching her die slowly.